…Most underrated fighter…

..and not used in the BoB for two reasons, neither of which appear in the ‘established’ history. One, horrible fat prop blades kept its operational ceiling below what Dowding thought critical to take on the 109 and two, Dowding was instead keeping his few delivered Whirlwinds up North in reserve as the only ‘tank buster’ we had in the event of an invasion.

I get the logic, but a pity it wasn’t tried against bomber formations.

Quote — “the Allies didn’t even know the KI100 existed till the war ended.”
The Ki-100 made its combat debut on the night of 9 March 1945.

So according to you it was invisible, thanks for your input.

OK…all allied reports that line up with KI100 missions id the aircraft in combat as…FRANK’s…….TONY’s OR ZEKE’s…..the allied intelligence had no idea that the KI100 existed at all..it was a complete surprise when they were shown them at the end of the war..yes the pilots knew they were fighting a well armed and fast fighter(still with only 1500 hp)BUT they never ID’d it as a new type…try looking at the new book KI61 and Ki100 aces…it was never identifies as a new fighter,always miss identified

..and not used in the BoB for two reasons, neither of which appear in the ‘established’ history. One, horrible fat prop blades kept its operational ceiling below what Dowding thought critical to take on the 109 and two, Dowding was instead keeping his few delivered Whirlwinds up North in reserve as the only ‘tank buster’ we had in the event of an invasion.

Funnily enough, I have an opinion on this.

The archive shows that the programme was cancelled because it was generally agreed that RR shouldn’t go on making two Peregrines (or Merlins – it was seriously discussed) for every aircraft.

Not necessarily underrated, but largely unrecognised.

I thought you might have an opinion on the Whirlwind:)

I can see the reasoning for single engined a/c during 1940, but had it been used in the BoB the programme wouldn’t have been cancelled.

Unrecognised only due to the low number built.

Quote — “the Allies didn’t even know the KI100 existed till the war ended.”
The Ki-100 made its combat debut on the night of 9 March 1945.

So according to you it was invisible, thanks for your input.

The most feared Japanese fighter that the ” Tokyo Club “ encountered was the Kawasaki Ki-100, & not the Hayate.
It gave the P-51 pilots a hard time “the Japanese quickly developed a means of fitting extra Tony airframes with 2,000-hp radials. The result was a match for almost any American fighter in the war. Designated Ki-100, the radial-engine Tony never received an Allied code name, but was respected by Mustang pilots who suddenly found their speed advantage badly depleted.”

LINK – http://www.axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?384

Regards Duggy

duggy you might want to research abit more…….the Allies didn’t even know the KI100 existed till the war ended…and it only had a 1500 HP engine…yes in many ways it was a better fighter…but it wasnt as fast as the KI84(post war testing in the US gave the frank a top speed of 427 MPH)..the Goshikisen…….so in many ways it could fit into the most underrated fighter…..KI100 gave more than a fair share of it’s self in battle (it did a reasonable job against B29’s as well) and yet it wasnt even known about till the war was over…..it was simple easy to maintain and didnt have the mechanical nightmare the nakajima homare that hampered many of the late war Japanese planes.

Funnily enough, I have an opinion on this.

That aside, two facts – one, the engine was no more prone to failure than a Merlin. A curious myth has grown here. Two – the small number built did a great deal of damage to transport, shipping, and enemy aircraft in their ‘short career’ (three years).

The archive shows that the programme was cancelled because it was generally agreed that RR shouldn’t go on making two Peregrines (or Merlins – it was seriously discussed) for every aircraft. The rest of the nonsense about type ‘failure’ just grew up afterwards, not helped by records remaining classified until the seventies, by which time many ‘histories’ had been written.

Not necessarily underrated, but largely unrecognised.

How can the Whirlwind be underrated if it had such a short career?
Simply: Did it do more damage to the Germans than it cost to develop, produce and operate?

The reasons for its failure (i.e. blame the engine) are irrelevant….if it didn’t perform (period, no excuses allowed this isn’t like modern schools) it can’t be under-rated.
It can be termed “promising” but beset by technical issues…like many other aircraft or those too late to see extensive service.
If we give it credit for potential, we might as well call the Warwick or Typhoon (as an interceptor) a “world beater”….not to mention every axis “paper airplane” those books with computer illustrations of flame-spewing Germans are filled with.
“If the war had lasted for another 15 minutes…”. :).

I vote for the Hellcat….it did great work in the Pacific carrier war in support of the “island hopping” campaign to push back Japanese expansion in the Pacific(which UK fans tend to forget even happened since the RN wasn’t the major player in it :)).
Likewise, the P-40 family is rarely mentioned as one of the “greats” like the Spitfire and Mustang. But because it wasn’t in the BoB and 8th AF FC, it’s overlooked. A workhorse on par with the Hurricane or A6M series.

My understanding was that, on those occasions that the engine did.’t fail, it proved hugely wffective, fast and manouevreable?

And as I said, I’m not claiming the 110 was a better night fighter than the Mossie. It WAS deadlier in the respect it had a much higher kill count, and was obviously a great night fighter.

The Me-110 was also very effective against unescorted US bomber daylight raids with its concentration of 4 cannons in its nose. Of course the Mosquito would have caused huge devastation against daylight german bombers had it been introduced in time for the BoB, especially considering it was faster than both the Me-109 and Spitfire. But the Germans made the absolute worst decision of not putting the Fw-187 into large scale production which would have been the best twin engine fighter of the war. To a lessor extent they should not have ignored the He-100 as that could have been a very hard to hit adversary in the BoB.

IMO, the most underrated fighters (at least to western eyes) were russians fighters, my choice of fighter out of any would have been the Yak-3

I’d agree on the Hellcat. It scored more kills than all the rest of the USN’s fighters put together yet the Corsair grabs all the glory, due in no small part to a corny 1970s TV show.

How can the Whirlwind be underrated if it had such a short career?
Simply: Did it do more damage to the Germans than it cost to develop, produce and operate?

The reasons for its failure (i.e. blame the engine) are irrelevant….if it didn’t perform (period, no excuses allowed this isn’t like modern schools) it can’t be under-rated.
It can be termed “promising” but beset by technical issues…like many other aircraft or those too late to see extensive service.
If we give it credit for potential, we might as well call the Warwick or Typhoon (as an interceptor) a “world beater”….not to mention every axis “paper airplane” those books with computer illustrations of flame-spewing Germans are filled with.
“If the war had lasted for another 15 minutes…”. :).

I vote for the Hellcat….it did great work in the Pacific carrier war in support of the “island hopping” campaign to push back Japanese expansion in the Pacific(which UK fans tend to forget even happened since the RN wasn’t the major player in it :)).
Likewise, the P-40 family is rarely mentioned as one of the “greats” like the Spitfire and Mustang. But because it wasn’t in the BoB and 8th AF FC, it’s overlooked. A workhorse on par with the Hurricane or A6M series.

Another vote for the Westland Whirlwind, A shame about the engine holding it back. What about the Chance Vought Corsair. Any plane the Japanese nicknamed Whistling death has to be worthy of repect!Fast/powerful and well-armed?

I have the feeling that also the Grumman Hellcat is little underrated outside the US. One should take a little from P-51 and give it to Grumman Hellcat .. For gods sake this ugly and clumsy looking fighter has won the war in the Pacific !! called ‘ the ZERO killer ‘

Absolutely. Not as glamorous as a Corsair or as pretty as a Mustang or Spitfire, but a phenomenal record. Only two major variants, so they got the design pretty much right from the start, and having done it’s job it disappeared from the frontline very quickly after WWII.

From Wikipedia;

U.S. Navy and Marine F6F pilots flew 66,530 combat sorties and claimed 5,163 kills (56% of all U.S. Navy/Marine air victories of the war) at a recorded cost of 270 Hellcats in aerial combat (an overall kill-to-loss ratio of 19:1 based on claimed but not confirmed kills).

D1566 and bazv have hi-jacked the thread into war crimes carpet bombing. If that is your position and you wish to pursue that, please open a new thread. You will of course be flamed on this board unless you put forward Alternatives that Ministers could have funded, to deal with Germany and Japan: full frontal assault on beach defences, wire, mines intact, would not be a practical option.

No I haven’t, and obviously irony is lost on some people.

The most feared Japanese fighter that the ” Tokyo Club “ encountered was the Kawasaki Ki-100, & not the Hayate.
It gave the P-51 pilots a hard time “the Japanese quickly developed a means of fitting extra Tony airframes with 2,000-hp radials. The result was a match for almost any American fighter in the war. Designated Ki-100, the radial-engine Tony never received an Allied code name, but was respected by Mustang pilots who suddenly found their speed advantage badly depleted.”

LINK – http://www.axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?384

Regards Duggy

….There was the Nakajima Hayate… an extremely handsome radial engined Japanese fighter ‘plane which was developed late in WW2 and known to the US forces as the “Frank”….apparently a very potent fighter that could take on the P-51’s and P-47’s and be a machine to be reckoned with….

…from all accounts during the last weeks of the war when one of these entered the Radar screens and showing a great turn of speed, the U.S.A.A.F. fighter pilots engaging in “radar watching” would matter-of-factly state…”Forget it …It’s a Frank” !!

I see what you mean! https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Nakajima+Hayate&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjs8M7Ola7KAhWBNBQKHQ0jCWMQiR4IgAE&biw=1920&bih=1067

….There was the Nakajima Hayate… an extremely handsome radial engined Japanese fighter ‘plane which was developed late in WW2 and known to the US forces as the “Frank”….apparently a very potent fighter that could take on the P-51’s and P-47’s and be a machine to be reckoned with….

…from all accounts during the last weeks of the war when one of these entered the Radar screens and showing a great turn of speed, the U.S.A.A.F. fighter pilots engaging in “radar watching” would matter-of-factly state…”Forget it …It’s a Frank” !!

If allowed to stray from WW2, perhaps the Sopwith Dolphin and Martinsyde Buzzard could be considered very effective but largely unknown except for enthusiasts and therefore generally underrated?

D1566 and bazv have hi-jacked the thread into war crimes carpet bombing. If that is your position and you wish to pursue that, please open a new thread. You will of course be flamed on this board unless you put forward Alternatives that Ministers could have funded, to deal with Germany and Japan: full frontal assault on beach defences, wire, mines intact, would not be a practical option.

I had not mentioned war crimes Ken,merely commenting on the realities of ‘precision bombing’ during WW2 – and to be pedantic I was actually posting as a reply to previous posters ; )

It is true that this somewhat lightweight thread has wandered a bit, but please note that 1) Carpet bombing is not an accurate description of the area bombing carried out by the RAF and 8th AF in WW2, and 2) The bombing campaign against Germany never was and never will be a “war crime”. It was simply “war”.

Now, back on topic please.

Moggy