I have been looking into the plethora of Russian Missile systems, AAW/ASW/AShW, and have come to two conclusions. The Novarta club series are a highly versatile and very capable series of missiles as are the 9M96E/9M96E2 and 48N6E AAW missiles. Not only this bu the dimensions of the 48N6E are within those of the AShM Club missile (3M54TE), so why not work the aformentioned AAW missiles into the same VLS as the Clubs? Surely the 9M96E2 could be quadpacked in the same way it is in the S-300 launcher as well? (Can both the 9M96E and the 9M96E2 missiles be quadpacked?)
Now sticking with the former soviet theme, why not then couple this to the Kvant AESA system (Ukranian, and reportedly used on the chines 052C DDG, or at least its tech is) capable of tracking 150 aircraft sized targets at a range of 150-160km in broad search mode. This fits near perfectly with the 120km range of the 9M96E2 missile, in spot mode the Kvant may even be able to provide sufficient range for the reported 400km range missile of the S-400 system. This would provide a fantastic AAW capability to a surface ship. Combined with a universal VLS for the Club system offering ALCM, ASW and ASuW missiles a very versatile surface combattant could be produced with a very clean profile.
Obviously this is all entirely hypothetical and if anybody can see any flaws or has any recomendations please let me know.
My sources
S-300 missile dimensions and performance, http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/s300.htm
Club Missile dimensiona and performance, http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s3m54e25hg.jpg
Courtesy of, http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=1970&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0
Kvant performance and specifications, http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.63/pub_detail.asp
So thoughts please everybody? and thankyou in advance.
By: sealordlawrence - 19th December 2006 at 16:20
Thankyou PLA. I was inspired to look into this by reading the excellent Russian navy thread here, it occured to me that the Soviet Union must have been working on advanced naval radars and new ship designs when it collapsed and that with the renewed interest the Russians are showing in their navy and that others are showing in buying its kit, that a solution to their weapons/ systems situation needs to be sort. So I followed the principle that the western navys have been of producing universal VLS (Mk41/Sylver) and reducing the number of radars on a ship (Aegis/Sampson/Arabel). Combined with the fact that the Russians have so many missile types that some of them somewhere must have similar dimensions and hey presto.:D
By: PLA-MKII - 19th December 2006 at 15:39
Amazing, I was just a month back thinking of how to best integrate the S-300..
Great job Sea Lord Lawrence, thou art truly a Sea Lord 😉
By: sealordlawrence - 16th December 2006 at 16:11
Im not sure I am prepared to share the profits, sorry neptune!;) It has just occurred to me that a ship with 96 VLS cells could carry 16 ASuW missiles, 16 ASW missiles and 256 AAW missiles with a range of 120km!!!:eek:
By: Neptune - 16th December 2006 at 14:09
I’m in for your design, if you want assistance, here I am. (of course you will have to pay me some of your profits :p ).
I wouldn’t choose the P15 hull though. Better to design something entirely new maybe even using a trimaran design, much better initial stability (better for radar performance and tracking) or use somthing like the Schelde combattant design.
By: sealordlawrence - 16th December 2006 at 14:00
Thanks everybody, so it seems that so far there are not any real boundrys to this! Part of my thinking behind the idea was to try and reduce the huge numbers of different missile and radar types in Russian usage. One could also mount count the Kvant panels below the bridge and give the vessel a look like the Australian AWD from Gibbs and Cox.
You know I might just design this and sell it to the Russians, I quite fancy part of their upcoming procurement budget!
By: Gollevainen - 16th December 2006 at 12:13
didn’t the past twin main radar set come from the need of the ‘seccond captain’ style rudimate fire/battle controll computer? At least the Convays book mention this as the reason…or was it just a cold war era assumption of the west now proven as wrong:confused: radars arent my best part…:o
By: Neptune - 16th December 2006 at 10:20
I think it’s an excellent idea.
SOC, the Klub is also mounted in these tubes, the VLS is simply a rack that holds these tubes. So wether you would put a SAM tube or an SSM tube in it, doesn’t really have complications for the VLS.
I’m not sure about the radars though. Depends on the size they have, otherwise they could try to use a mast like the APAR mast on 7 Prov. (Mast on Alvaro looks ugly 😉 )
You could also mount Medvedka in if you manage to change the dimentions a bit.
It doesn’t really fit in the Russian idea of having several radars for different missiles. It would mean that once you hit the Kvant or bridge, you wouldn’t have any AAW system operational. At this moment they use several radars, which allows them to continue the fight if one or more are hit.
This is of course just a thought, they could as well change this practice.
I suggest you now design that ship, call it project 22355, project Lawrence and sell it to the Russians 😀
By: SOC - 16th December 2006 at 05:05
Yes, both of the 9M96 variants can be quad-packed.
You have an interesting idea. The problem is that the launching apparatus is probably not compatible between the Club and the 48N6. 48N6 missiles are carried and fitted in sealed, self-contained launch tubes, so I don’t know how that would integrate within the Club VLS system. Also, the 48N6D/48N6E2 missile has a 200km range, so you’ll need a far-reaching radar to take full advantage of the Fort-M system. This is partly why the Pyotr Veliky is fitted with a TOMB STONE radar in place of the forward TOP DOME to employ the 48N6 missile.
By: sealordlawrence - 16th December 2006 at 04:10
Part 2
Possibly then the system could be installed on a hull similar to the one below (Indian P15A) the radar mounted in a manner similar to that of the spanish Aegis DDG’s, above the bridge. Then with the Universal club VLS system such a vessel could potentially have 96 VLS cells? add the Kashtan/Palma system and an A192 130mm gun some good ASW sensors and one would have a very powerful surface ship?
I selected the P15A not becouse I am suggesting this for India but becouse it seems quite Russian in apearance and makes extensive use of VLS cells thus giving a good impression of what such a purely hypothetical system may look like. Imagine the structure above the bridge replaced with the 4 panel Kvant system as on the Spanish Aegis DDG’s.
Sign In
December 16, 2006 at 2:38 am