My first deer

Firearms are as much an invention of man as snares. The onyl
way we’re able to kill megafauna is with tools. A stick with a
point on the end is as much an invention of man as a rifle. Both
take skill to use.

Part of the thrill of hunting is th eskill it takes. That’s why bow
hunting is very popular. You have to get the deer closer, and it’s
still harder to get a good shot.

Other people take this to an even greater level. One that, one
day, I would like to do. Constructing your own recurved bow.
That takes a lot of time and skill – but it’d be worth it. Hunting
with soemthing that you built yourself woudl be cool…

Hi AJ

Sorry got wrong end of stick!!

I suppose it is a natural progression from the snare to the firearm as you can be more selective with a firearm than with a snare which is indiscriminate in its killing.

A225HVY

Why are Americans so obsessed with guns anyway….?

Its in their constitution ,to bear arms or arm bears ,one or the other 😀
I think they see it as their right.
Its not only the yanks who have a fascination with guns i too can admit to being a shooter and have owned many types of firearms over the years.But i can honestly say i ,have never shot at or even contemplated killing an animal.
What if the things we kill in our lifetime come to meet us on our death. 😮

Millionaires going for lions? I don’t think so. A co worker of
mine has gone to Africa a few times, and he makes less than
$40,000. He just saved up. Got a leopard, wart hog and a
buffalo. Trophy hunting. Not for me, personally, but I can see the
thrill in it. It just isn’t something I’d do, I don’t think I’d enjoy
killing a predator unless it was trying to kill me o rsomeone else.
THEN I’d put it on a wall… I just wouldn’t go looking for one for
that purpose.

Besides, how do you think these poor african countries maintain
their game lands and prevent poachers from killing endangered
animals – hunting permits and safaris. Kill a few animals here,
save hundreds there.

If you want to be “at one with nature” then surely it would involve using snares etc.,

Sorry to say this but have you seen the suffering an animal can go through if caught in snares?? They even go the extreme of gnawing thier own limbs off to escape…..not a pretty sight 🙁

Better a clean single kill shot

A225HVY

Had an elk steak here the other night and later some elk roast with some friends from whom the animal came…both were delicious….you can tell it’s hunting season out west here…more power to you all who hunt…I don’t, but I sure as hell fish….not much of a difference, I guess.

Mark

…not just hiding in a bush and putting a round into the first deer you see?

…Or fellow hunter, no matter how brightly coloured their attire! How often does that happen each season?

Flood

Why are Americans so obsessed with guns anyway….?

They said if weapons were banned from the public domain gun crime would be reduced!! What a load of cods it’s up by 57% in some places!!

Oh well, sleep safe in the knowledge that at least this increase in crime is now only being committed by criminals…:D

Most hunter’s have respect for the animals they hunt. They use
what they kill, and hunt for more than just the killing part.

And the millionaires who pay to kill chosen lions and elephants in reserves just so that they can say they’ve done it, where do they fit in? Bit like those people who pay to be more-or-less carried to the top of Everest just so that they can claim they ‘climbed’ the highest mountain (open for debate, that one!) in the world.

Flood

Varminting is purely done for sport, for fun, as a test of skill. It’s
not at all like hunting for deer, bear or turkey.

It’s cruel, and the only skills practiced in it coudl be done with
non-living targets. For me, there’s not much to be gained from it.
Any fun in killing varmits woudl be outweighed by the shear
meanness of killing for fun only.

Here’s where you are wrong.

Most hunter’s have respect for the animals they hunt. They use
what they kill, and hunt for more than just the killing part.

Using varmint hunting as a justification for opposing deer hunting is
senseless – they’re different.

People go and hunt deer for the experience, the challenge, the thrill
and the meat.

Other people go and shoot praire dogs to watch them explode
into a cloud of blood and fur.

We’re talking about two entirely different mindsets here.

And humans aren’t the only animals that kill for fun. I’ve seen sea
lions, killer whales and dolphins do it. Cats will do it too – though
they are domesticated.

There is a distinction between hunting and killing an animal for the
sake of hunting it and eating it, and simply killing an animal to kill it.

I know of a few people that will go into a field andblast doves out
of the air all day, and just dump them into a ditch when they’re
done. I think that’s stupid, senseless cruelty, just like you do.

Varminting is a sport that’s derived from the necessary killing of pests. Groundhogs and prarie dogs are agricultural pests, and
destroy crops and cropland. Now, it’ s just a thing to do for fun.

This is my whole point. I accept the need to kill for food, conservation or pest-control as long as it’s done with a minimum of suffering and cruelty, but it’s this element of just killing for “Fun” or “Sport” that so many people find repugnant. If our whole relationship with animals is just “nature” how do you account for Varminting? What creature other than man kills for fun, as opposed to killing for food, defending it’s young, it’s territory, etc? I think Man unfortunately has an unhealthy cruel streak not found in nature, and it’s that element (and that alone) that I have an issue with in hunting.

I made my feelings about hunting in this tread earlier,but i must say what is annoying me so much is the attitude ,that because people live in towns they don’t under stand the ways of the country, that’s a bit of a broad statement don’t you think, Also that hunting in any form is a SPORT, i take sport to mean a competition, between teams or persons of equal abilities, not animals against the king of the food chain.I believe it will be a long time for this disagreement to be resolved, pro hunt and anti hunt,because its in our genetic makeup to hunt from our caveman days,just some of us have evolved since then.

There were numerous things we all once had to do for ourselves,
but surely mankind has only advanced through the division of
labour, by each of us specialising in different things and sharing the
fruits of our labours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

“From each according to his abilities, to each according to his
needs.”

So let other people do that work for you, because you don’t “have
to”? Just because something isn’t necessary isn’t a reason not to
do it. If I enjoy hunting and killing and eating an animal, it’s my
right to do it. Just because I can pay someone else to do it for
me, absolvign myself of work that is “beneath me’, doesn’t mean
I’m obligated to do it. Meat isn’t a necessary evil – why is it
people get so guilty about nature.

Predators and prey = nature
we’re predators, we kill and eat – that’s natural. No guilt, not evil,
just the natural way of things. You want to feel bad for the
animals, fine.

Do not become so enamoured with yourself that you consider
yourself to be apart from nature, and all it’s bloodshed and
suffering. Humans are not above nature, nor are we separate from
it. Every thing we do impacts nature just as much as any other
animal.

Nature does not garuntee a pain free living. A starving deer feels
pain, as does one that is shot through the heart, or ripped apart by
wolves. Unless you shoot them right in the head ( actually, many
hunters do this when they’re just going for meat), they’re going to
suffer somewhat.

Varminting is a sport that’s derived from the necessary killing of
pests. Groundhogs and prarie dogs are agricultural pests, and
destroy crops and cropland. Now, it’ s just a thing to do for fun.
check out www.explodinggroundhog.com for details. I wouldn’t,
though…

I knew someoen was going to get to that. “we’ve moved on”.
Basically, the fact that you feel hunting is bad, pointless or
“primitive and below us”, yet industrial breeding, rearing and
slaughtering of animals by the millions, is fine and dandy, is tself
absurd.

I don’t consider it “Fine and Dandy”. Like you, I believe we need meat, but I consider meat production a neccessary evil that should only be carried out under the most humane conditions possible. If I believed every hunter killed quickly, cleanly and humanely, purely for food, and with absolutely no desire to kill just for the fun of it, then I’d probably have no problem with it. Sadly, whilst you may have the right motives and skills, it seems that far too many of your fellow hunters enjoy the killing first and foremost, and then try to justify it by saying they were only doing it for the meat or something. And what is Varminting, shooting Groundhogs and Prairie Dogs, if it’s not killing just for the sake of it? As for us still having hunting instincts, being predators and not “moving on”, frankly I think we should have. There were numerous things we all once had to do for ourselves, but surely mankind has only advanced through the division of labour, by each of us specialising in different things and sharing the fruits of our labours.

I think Pluto has put his case very well and I would stand by his side anyday on this subject……having had my armoury reduced over the last few years from rifles/shotguns and a couple of pistols and left with just a couple of shotguns for clay shooting and the odd pidgeon shoot by the tree hugging bunny lovers and knee jerk rectionists in this country.

They said if weapons were banned from the public domain gun crime would be reduced!! What a load of cods it’s up by 57% in some places!!

Still what am I to know against our elected people in higher power what is best for me

A225HVY

Hunters contribute more to protecting nature than
environmentalists. Hunters pay qite a bit for their liscenses. In
NC, it’s $40 for a sportsmen’s liscense, which let’s me go for deer,
turkey, bear, some fowl, and fish, includign trout. Migratory
waterfowl and doves are a little extra. NC is one of the cheapest
states too.

It’s only contradictory if you don’t have an understanging of nature,
the environment and biological systems. Killing a deer, a bear or
anyhting else for that matter does not harm nature. As long as
hunting is regulated, it’s not harmful. In most cases, it’s more than
beneficial, it’s a crucial part of nature’s balance. The money
collected goes to enforcing regulations and sustainable forestry
practices. In the end, it helps protect the environment.

What’s contradictory is when environmentalists collect money to
save the forest, and use it to prohibit forestry operations in an
attempt at “preserving” the forest. In time, this leads to massive
forest fires and a truely devastating incident.

Managed forestry and selective harvesting of trees simply replaces
the natural regenerative process of limited burning. Burnign is
somewhat incompatible with civilization, so in many cases, forestry
is the only alternative.

An individual deer isn’t nature, it’s a component in nature. Just as
the food the deer eats, the trees, the rivers and streams – and the
things that help balance it all out – predators, fire, drought, and
disease. All are important, necesaary aspects of a healthy,
sustainable ecosystem. Problem is, predators are predators to us
as well as deer. Being the top predators, we’ve pushed out out
competition and rivals – it’s a prudent thing to do. Nobody wants
to run the risk of being torn apart by wolves, or ambushed by a
cougar every time they venture in the woods. As we supplant
these other predators, we must also replace them. IF they ar ento
there to fil their niche, we must do so, or else the whole system
becomes unbalanced. In Eastern NC, deer are all over the place.
Contrary to what’s popularly believed, humans don’t just hunt the
healthy, big bucks. Sure, they’r esought after,bu ut hunting limits in
overpopulated areas are slanted heavily in favor of killing does.
Here, you can’t kill more than 2 bucks, but you can kill as many as
5 does a season, per person. In th emountains, you can only kill
does on the very last day of the season, and only one at that.

Not anyone in my state can go hunting. You have to pay a lot of money to be a hunter and all that money goes to conservation of wildlife in my state.

A contadiction in terms isnt it…? you have to kill wild life to conserve it.
Humans die of starvation and desease, is that why we have wars…?

A couple kid skilling an animal just to kill it certainly doesn’t make
them hunters. I killed a squirrel that was chewing through my
walls. I created a trap, caught it and shot it. I don’t consider that
a hunt. I didn’t enjoy it either.

Just the same, people go varminting out in the West. The AR-15,
esentially the M-16 only semi automatic, was developed for this
purpose – varmint hunting. They usually use them for killing praire
dogs and groundhogs. Purely for fun. Hard to see, very small
targets at long ranges – challenging target shooting. Looks like it
could be a lot of fun. It’s not hunting to me. It’s sport shooting.
Not for me, however. I’m an animal lover, and I don’t hurt
animals without a good reason.

I knew someoen was going to get to that. “we’ve moved on”.

No we haven’t.

We’re still animals, with instincts. You can’t repress that, or put it
away. Some people never have the desire – I certainly didn’t. I
had ZERO desire to kill anything but fish. After being around
hunters, I saw the enjoyment of the hunt – not just the kill – but the
hunt.

You feel the rush of a hunt, and you’ll clearly see that we retain our
hunting instinct. Our biology is definatly not suited to any native
plant diet. In fact, there are few, if any, places on earth where a
human could exist on a purely veggie diet without the benifits of
agriculture or industry. We couldn’t exist without meat prior to
agriculture and industry.

Besides, how does it make it better if the animals are slaughtered
in a slaughterhouse? Human kills animal, human eats animal.
Predator, prey. Hunters are predators, deer are prey.
slaughterhouse workers are not really predators, they are killing
wholesale. Hardly filling a natural niche.

In all actuality, the reason hunting is so much of a rush, and so
enjoyable, is not simply because of the hunting and killing, it’s the
overall experience. You’re truely one with nature. A hiker or
camper is just IN nature, watchign it, observing it, taking it in. A
hunter becomes part of it, a functioning part of the ecosystem.
You breathe in the air, watch the sun rise and set, listen to the
sounds, just like a hiker or camper. But you actually interact with
th eanimals, filling the role of predator. It is esentially going back
to the past, back in time. Just like camping fills some desire to go
back in time, hunting takes it to another level.

You want to truly experience nature, be a part of it, not just an
observer.

Also, hunters were the first environmental advocates. Our national
forests and parks got their starts because of unters wishing to
protect nature (you can’t preserve nature, it’s always changing).
Hunters have been integral in reintroducing once native animals to
game lands. Elk have been reintroduced in NC, and are doing
well. In time, we’ll be able to hunt them. But the best part is
they’re back. hunter’s know you can’t preserve nature – they want
to protect it. Environmentalists try to preserve it, keep it as it wa
swithout human intervention. They don’t consider us part of
nature. It’s a flawed concept, and doomed to failure. We’re as
much a part of nature as anything, and denying that is pointless.

Basically, the fact that you feel hunting is bad, pointless or
“primitive and below us”, yet industrial breeding, rearing and
slaughtering of animals by the millions, is fine and dandy, is tself
absurd. The simple fact is ( and this is no way an insult) that
society and civilization has enabled us to be so far removed from
nature, survival, and the nity-gritty aspects of life that we are able
to look down on them.

If people had to slaughter and butcher their own animals, and they
learned how to do it from a youg age, then this would be no
problem. Now, people don’t even know what kind of animal their
meat comes from! I’ve had people swear bacon and sparer ibs
were beef products…

People that think meat, hunting and th emeat industry is barbaric,
that’s fine. That’s their opinion, and there’s no arguing against
opinion. However, the stance that hunting, preserving the balance
of predator and prey, is barbaric, yet the industrial process of
breeding for flavor, raising for tenderness, and slaughtering
wholesale, packing in plastic, and selling in unrecognizable
packaging is NOT barbaric is purely nonsense.

I’m fine with the meat industry. I could go into a slaughterhouse,
watch an animal walk in , and cook it’s steaks on the other side,
and enjoy them. I’m not in denial about where my food comes
from. Killing the thing yourself is just taking matters into your
own hands. Such independence isn’t for everyone. Many people
simply enjoy a life where thigs are provided for them, and they
simply fill their role. They do their work, removed from the stuff
they find dirtyy or ugly. For me, there is a certain satisfaction in
the idea of killing and providing for my family – it’s a
responsibility.

I know it is sometimes necessary to hunt in order to survive and I understand the need for controlled culling, but if you already have access to all the cheap, safe & humanely produced food you can eat, what on earth makes an ordinary person want to stalk and kill a healthy animal for pure pleasure? Others have made a good point about a wild animal (unlike a farm animal) having a life of freedom, but surely that only makes it even more wrong to wantonly destroy that life? And how much “Sport” or contest can there really be between a dumb creature and an intelligent armed man? Like most people I eat meat, wear leather shoes, etc, and yes, I’m sometimes uneasy about where it comes from. But for me the big difference with hunting for pleasure is that at least my food is produced in a controlled, licenced environment with as little suffering as possible. For every quick, clean hunting kill we hear someone bragging about, how many go wrong (perhaps with inexperienced or careless hunters) leaving the animal to suffer a slow and possibly painful death?

I also have some sympathy with the argument that fox-hunting in the UK is neccessary to control vermin, but I just don’t understand how people can take a delight in turning any kind of death into such a celebration. If it has to be done, it should be done simply and discreetly like any other form of pest control, not turned into some kind of bloodlust festival. And please don’t insult our intelligences by saying the fox (or stag) actually enjoys running for its life, and that any “Townie” who disbelieves that is ignorant of “Country Ways” I understand the argument about tradition too, but just because something has been happening for a long time does not automatically make it right; after all, bear-baiting, c0ck-fighting and pig-sticking were once considered harmless and traditional, but surely no one would try to defend such barbarism now. Pluto makes a fair point about us evolving as predators, but I like to think we’ve moved on since then.

The bottom line for me is that I believe it’s wrong to kill anything for fun. If it has to be done for reasons of food production or preservation, it should be done discreetly by professionals. High time we grew up and put all bloodsports behind us.