Napier Sabre list?

Jayce,

If there is a Sabre at Rechlin, (sorry I have no photo) it could have come from either a Typhoon or Tempest. In June 1944, Hans-Werner Lurche flew a Typhoon at Rechlin. This he described in passing on p 121 of his book, Luftwaffe Test Pilot , Jane’s, 1980, ISBN 0 7106 0031 3. He does not identify the aircraft.

However, On Special Missions – The Luftwaffe’s Research and Experimental Squadrons 1923 -1945, Smith, Creek and Petrick, p92-93, 2003,Classic Books ISBN 9 781903 223338, shows EJ 956 ex 486 squadron in colour profile and photographs at Rechlin in June 1944, but the Sabre is not likely to be from it as it crashed near Harburg in July 1944. A photo in Lerche’s book shows JP 961 JX-U recovered by rail after force landing, it says, in 1943. Perhaps that is the donor engine referred to by your colleague.

Lurche then flew the Tempest V and this is described pp 127- 131. He seemed to enjoy it, but again did not identify the aircraft.

Unfortunately Lerche’s book is not indexed and so there might be more within its covers than I have related. (Incidentally this book reveals Lurche’s part in August 1944 by flying a Lancaster at night over Berlin to determine by experiment how to combat “Window.”)

Jean-Louis Roba’s book, Foreign Planes in the Service of the Luftwaffe, Pen and Sword , 2009, ISBN 184884081-0 shows in photograph, (no page number) JR 319, “G” (he says from being recovered fairly intact, after a crash. The book then says without evidence that the “German Air Force seems to have tested at least two Typhoons.”

JP845 of 485 Squadron was also captured (photograph in Roba no page number, but says lost near Abbeville 21 December 1943) but there is no evidence of its flying in German hands.

Roba also shows a Beaufighter in flight in German colours, p 140, a captured Mosquito on a beach, undercarriage down. This may be the aircraft in colour profile and photographs in Smith, Creek and Petrick, p82-83. This aircraft was captured before 3 September 1943.

WZ862

There is German documentation to show at least 3 Typhoons were flown by the Luftwaffe. EJ956 ex SA-I of 486 Sqn (f/l 24 March 43), JP548 ex 174 Sqn (f/l 14 February 44) and a third as yet unidentified.

There are photos taken by US forces in a wrecked hangar near Paris which show JP845 SA-H (ex 486 Sqn), apparently being rebuilt or used for spares retrieval, along with JP915 US-K (ex 56 Sqn), JP510 FM-Y (ex 257 Sqn) and at least one other (as well as Spits and P-47s). JP915 still has its Sabre but JP845’s and one other’s have been removed .

JR319 HH-C was shot down on 16 March 44. An earlier 175 Sqn Typhoon, JP577 HH-T (f/l 16 August 43) was displayed at Beutepark 5 der Luftwaffe, Paris-Nanterre, still with its detached tail unit. In fact many Typhoons were force-landed as they operated at levels too low for the pilot to bale out – so the Germans would have had plenty of reasonably intact Sabres to choose from.

Only one captured Tempest is known to have been flown; EJ709 f/l on 5 October 44, 274 Sqn. As with the Typhoon, many others were forced to crash-land in enemy territory and could have been Sabre-donors.

Sabre at Rechlin?

Jayce,

If there is a Sabre at Rechlin, (sorry I have no photo) it could have come from either a Typhoon or Tempest. In June 1944, Hans-Werner Lurche flew a Typhoon at Rechlin. This he described in passing on p 121 of his book, Luftwaffe Test Pilot , Jane’s, 1980, ISBN 0 7106 0031 3. He does not identify the aircraft.

However, On Special Missions – The Luftwaffe’s Research and Experimental Squadrons 1923 -1945, Smith, Creek and Petrick, p92-93, 2003,Classic Books ISBN 9 781903 223338, shows EJ 956 ex 486 squadron in colour profile and photographs at Rechlin in June 1944, but the Sabre is not likely to be from it as it crashed near Harburg in July 1944. A photo in Lerche’s book shows JP 961 JX-U recovered by rail after force landing, it says, in 1943. Perhaps that is the donor engine referred to by your colleague.

Lurche then flew the Tempest V and this is described pp 127- 131. He seemed to enjoy it, but again did not identify the aircraft.

Unfortunately Lerche’s book is not indexed and so there might be more within its covers than I have related. (Incidentally this book reveals Lurche’s part in August 1944 by flying a Lancaster at night over Berlin to determine by experiment how to combat “Window.”)

Jean-Louis Roba’s book, Foreign Planes in the Service of the Luftwaffe, Pen and Sword , 2009, ISBN 184884081-0 shows in photograph, (no page number) JR 319, “G” (he says from being recovered fairly intact, after a crash. The book then says without evidence that the “German Air Force seems to have tested at least two Typhoons.”

JP845 of 485 Squadron was also captured (photograph in Roba no page number, but says lost near Abbeville 21 December 1943) but there is no evidence of its flying in German hands.

Roba also shows a Beaufighter in flight in German colours, p 140, a captured Mosquito on a beach, undercarriage down. This may be the aircraft in colour profile and photographs in Smith, Creek and Petrick, p82-83. This aircraft was captured before 3 September 1943.

WZ862

Some great pics of the Sabre on this thread. Just thought I would post these. From memory Typhoon crashed near Exeter after engine cut out. Recovered early 1970’s.

Tallies of Aircraft

if only there had been upwards of 7000 made…then perhaps there would be more than the 1 3/4 that are known to exist!!!

Dave – I was only adding the sums listed in Wiki for production numbers of the craft – but had a mental aberration late at night:

Typhoon – 3,317 (with 2 references – Thomas and Shores 1988, Thomas 2000)

Tempest – 1,702 (which obviously included the Bristol engined Tempest II issued in mid 1945 onwards)

So somehow I made a numerical slip, Christmas excuse… but still likely that there were 4000 – 5000 Sabre engines made for at least 4200+ Sabre engined planes.

I’m sure I’ve mentioned this before but I cannot see it in this thread, so here goes again.

For several years on the trot, an antiques dealer at the Beaulieu Autojumble had what he claimed to be a Napier Sabre carburettor for sale. It was clearly n.o.s. and mounted on a display base. The asking price was £800.

To me, a non-engine minded collector, it was just a bloody big lump of black, with no apparent use or future.

I don’t know what happened to it but one year it was no longer on the stall. This would be the early 1990’s.

With an asking price of £800, I doubt it ever got scrapped, so it’s probably still out there somewhere?

I was told by a Polish friend living in Germany recently that he knew of one one display at Reichlin along with a Halifax V Merlin. A google hunt turned up a picture of the Merlin but not the Saber. Can anyone confirm?

I have bought a ‘reduction gear’ from a friend of mine. it came from a friend of a friend who has had it for “ages”, so the history is kind of vague, but as far as it know it came from a Sabre engine from an aircraft recovered from ‘Off the Isle of Grain’

can anyone shed any light on what aircraft it may have been, or is the story fantasy? it certainly looks very similar to the cogs I can see on the pics above.

if only there had been upwards of 7000 made…then perhaps there would be more than the 1 3/4 that are known to exist!!!

I wonder what will happen with the ownership of the Nelson one on display at the World of Wearable Art Museum now that Richard Shuttleworth has passed away. I hope it will stay in New Zealand.

I was told reliably from museum staff that that engine as shown below, is still at that museum as well as possibly two or more Kestrels – more cutaway engines!! all part of Richard Shuttleworth’s personal collection but now donated to the Museum by the family. Note that this engine had been on display at the RNZAF Wigram Museum but was returned back to Nelson. This museum is titled: The World of Wearable Art and Classic Cars Museum… Museum Sabre link

Staff from the museum confirmed the engine was there with these photos: (also parts of the engine bear the stamp ENGINE NO S497 and a Mk VII which would indicate it is a very late engine) With upwards of 7000 Typhoons and Tempests made then the engine count could well have been over 10,000!

I believe this engine was already sectioned by another museum elsewhere before it was brought to NZ. Mr Shuttleworth was believing it was a complete engine and a possible future runner… so the story goes. Another one cut up!! JDK has already seen this one and photographed it and can be seen on the internet.

DaveR – PM sent

You have PM Bazza

Regarding the Sabre at Ricardo’s – My brother-in-law works there and he confirmed he has seen the engine and that it was put into store along with all the other “interesting” items. As far as he is aware they are all still in store.

Somewhere – when I find them, I’ll send you a PM

Bruce

you wouldn’t happen to have any contact details for him would you? 🙂

do you have any other info on Aviation Artefacts? A quick search on the net and it didn’t seem to pull anything up apart from your previous post!!!

I dont think you will find him on the web. John is the guy that sells the bits of polished aeroplane at airshows. Nice chap.

Bruce

Definitely dug up, Cees!

Remember; the soil conditions in the UK are (mostly) not like the Netherlands.

Folks,

For your infomation, here are a couple of pics of the Napier Sabre I spotted “round the back” at the Tangmere Museum in the mid-nineties.

Anon.

This Sabre doesn’t look like it was dug up, but trawled from the north sea.
Ours is in a similar (even worse) condition with the reduction gear missing.

cheers

Cees

do you have any other info on Aviation Artefacts? A quick search on the net and it didn’t seem to pull anything up apart from your previous post!!!

I think he still trades as far as I know. Gadebridge? Herts? Hemel? Somewhere in that direction, but I forget now exactly his location.

haven’t heard of Aviation Artifacts…are they still around?