National Heritage Warbird Foundation – Mk. Vb Spitfire BL628

New instrument panel,UC operating unit changed to later type,new wing details,no wires back to tail for aerial.Try modelling forums for more info.Some MkI,s were modified to MkV series during the course of their careers..

Hi all. I’ve just discovered this site today. I’m building a model of this Spitfire (BL628) and am thankful for this wealth of info! I was gifted this photo of George Murray about 10 years ago and, as a model maker, immediately secured a plastic model in 1/48 scale. The model is of a MK 1A but I mean to convert to a Vb. Any tips on modifications would be greatly appreciated! I have attached the photo of the man himself. Cheers! Douglas Watt

Hello again everyone!

Well, a very significant day is almost upon myself and my family. Marion has arrived in California at Provenance Fighter Sales and we are flying to California to see her. Simon Brown at Provenance Fighter Sales has been very gracious to allow us to come visit with Marion before she is delivered to her new owner. It sounds like Warren Denholm and his crew from Avspecs are going to be there as well and we’re looking forward to meeting with them.

After 30 years of waiting to meet Marion it almost feals surreal that we’re finally going to be seeing her for the first time. I know my grandfather would have liked to have been there to see her, but after his passing, I know he’ll be there in spirit.

We’ve been fairly busy here at the Foundation since I last posted on the forums. Len Krenzler’s print of Marion is done and it is absolutely gorgeous! We’re selling prints on our website for those that might be interested.

Althought Marion has been sold to another party, we’re continuing to move forward with our efforts at raising the money to build a mobile museum dedicated to the men and women of the RCAF. We’re also now looking at the possibility of purchasing a Tiger Moth to start our collection.

For those that may be interested, I’ve been toying with writing a Blog on our Foundation website of our trip to California. With more photography and video equipment in tow versus clothes I’ve packed, I’ll be posting lots of new pics on the site during our visit. So check into the site starting tomorrow, through to the 12th of December when we’ll be flying back to Canada.

I also want to take a second here to thank all of you that have been kind enough to send along your photographs you took when Marion was still in New Zealand. It’s been very appreciated by our family. I’ve been salivating over those pics since you sent them, and I can’t wait to finally see her in person!

Anyhow, check into our site if you’re interested in reading my blog and I’ll be back on the forum post visit to let you know how everything went!

Best regards,
Robert Flindall
Director
National Heritage Warbird Foundation
www.warbirdfoundation.org

We’re happy to announce that we’ve just recently commissioned two Canadian artists – William Hall and Len Krenzler to create two original art pieces for the Foundation. The pictures will feature BL628 in two unique situations during the war.

You can see more details here

Mr. Hall’s website is here

Mr. Krenzler’s webiste is here

We’re very thankful for their generous donations and welcome them to the Foundation!

Regards,

Robert Flindall
Director
National Heritae Warbird Foundation
www.warbirdfoundation.org

I have a note that the BL628 was ferried by the ATA from 6 Ferry Pool, Ratcliffe – Castle Bromwich to Lichfield. The pilot possibly ‘Jackie’ Moggridge.

I’m glad you mentioned that Mark12. A few years back, the CBC aired a series of Canadian heritage vignettes on television. One of the vignettes showed a Spitfire coming in for a landing and when some of the pilots gathered around to see who had flown in, they were astonished when a female hopped out of the cockpit. When my grandfather saw this on television he got really excited, exclaiming that’s exactly what happened to him. He remembers receiving his spitfire and being astonished when a female hopped out. We were never sure who that pilot was or whether it was BL628 or another Spit. I would think it’s a fairly safe bet now that it was BL628 and that Moggridge was that pilot! 🙂 That’s a great piece of history we never knew.

Could it have something to do with the fact that at the time no. 401 converted to Mk IXs, and quite a few (if not all) of its Mk Vs left the unit about that time, going different ways?

I’ve gone back through my grandfathers logbook for the period from late July to early August 1942 which reads :

July 27 – Spitfire YOD Gravesend to Martlesham Heath :35 – To Martlesham for weeks rest. This is the last time he flew BL628

There are 7 entries on August 1, 1942 where he flew Spitfire Mk. IX’s YOF, YOA, YOD and YOB. All Spit IX’s show Duty entries of Air Firing. On one entry he wrote “Darn good aircraft. SQD got Spit IX”

My understanding is that there was a fairly quick transition to the IX’s from the V’s, hence the entries of multiple V’s leaving on the same day. There are no further entries in his logbook where he flew a Mk. V.

I have a quick question for everyone – My grandfather was the recipient of the ruby-eyed silkworm from the Irving Air Chute Company for bailing out while under fire. We’ve got fairly good documentation on this pin. He was also awarded a pin of a pilot’s boot with a wing coming from it which we’ve learned is the “Late Arrival Club” pin (?). We are assuming he received this after being an evadee behind enemy lines in France after bailing out. Does anyone know where I can find more information about this pin? I can’t seem to find information about it anywhere. Thanks!

Here’s a great picture of my grandfather and Billy Bishop. He came to tour 401 SQD and wanted to meet my grandfather.

UPDATE – On the website, I’ve also included all of the pilots that flew BL628 in the 401 Squadron. Click here for details.

Cheers!

Robert Flindall
Director
National Heritage Warbird Foundation
www.warbirdfoundation.org
[email]rob@warbirdfoundation.org[/email]

Its interesting to note that BL628 and AB803 were both transferred from No.401 Sqdn to 308FS on 5 August 1942 and both moved on the following week to No. 167 Sqdn at Castletown, Caithness.
As the 308th were based at Kenley from 2 August – 28 August 1942 one wonders why these transfers were made, both aircraft were only on charge for seven days and presumably did not see any action?

Perhaps they were indeed meant to go to 308 (Polish) Squadron but someone got the paperwork wrong? AB803 finally got there a year later…

A third aircraft, BM481, left No.401 Sqdn on the same day as BL628 & AB803

Could it have something to do with the fact that at the time no. 401 converted to Mk IXs, and quite a few (if not all) of its Mk Vs left the unit about that time, going different ways?

Its interesting to note that BL628 and AB803 were both transferred from No.401 Sqdn to 308FS on 5 August 1942 and both moved on the following week to No. 167 Sqdn at Castletown, Caithness.

As the 308th were based at Kenley from 2 August – 28 August 1942 one wonders why these transfers were made, both aircraft were only on charge for seven days and presumably did not see any action?

A third aircraft, BM481, left No.401 Sqdn on the same day as BL628 & AB803 and was assigned to No.317 (Wilenski) Sqdn which was based at Northolt at the time.

Hypothetically speaking, could you end up with two aircraft with exactly the same provenance?

For instance if I legally acquired the original structure, fuselage, wings etc but without the data plate, but with conclusive evidence that it was XA123 in the former of paint work and stencilling, and you, who has a restored airframe in the markings of XA123 with the legally acquired data plate bolted to it.

I wonder how the law would view this scenario, would the sum of the parts prevail over ownership of the dataplate ?

I hope someone didn’t get the firewall and data plates stashed away before the cockpit was found!

On the Spitfire the frame 5 firewall is a free standing sub-assembly that is bolted to the skeletal structure of the fuselage at the lower and datum longerons. During the ‘skinning’ process the three forward skins of the fuselage are riveted to the frame 5 firewall along their leading edges to complete the torsional integrity.

Frame 5 assemblies were not only manufactured in house but also sub contracted out, the principal supplier being Heston Aircraft Industries. As such the frame 5 has its own unique sub-assembly data plate and construction number. It is not however the same construction number as that of the completed fuselage assembly, which carries the main c/n plate on the RH side of the cockpit, usually just below the datum longeron.

As there are no known manufacturers records that relate either of these plates to RAF serials, the data thereon is academic and the CAA seem to be satisfied with either or.

In the case mentioned by David Burke, and for the reasons stated above, the party with the cockpit section and its data plate would have a greater claim in my view to the provenance title then the party with the firewall.

It would be an interesting legal argument and the ramifications have been discussed. This scenario has certainly happened with a well recorded works ‘D’ Type Jaguar.

Mark

I hope someone didn’t get the firewall and data plates stashed away before the cockpit was found!

BL628: to 31st FG Atcham, 308 FS on 5 August 1942.

I have a note that the BL628 was ferried by the ATA from 6 Ferry Pool, Ratcliffe – Castle Bromwich to Lichfield. The pilot possibly ‘Jackie’ Moggridge.

Attached a shot from 30 years ago.

Mark

Voytech – Our records show on 05 Aug 42, BL628 going to 308 SQD as ZF-? at Heston, Middlesex. Would this be correct? That wouldn’t be a polish or USAAF unit would it?
Talk to you all soon,

Robert Flindall
Director
National Heritage Warbird Foundation
www.warbirdfoundation.org
[email]rob@warbirdfoundation.org[/email]

Hi Rob

ZF is the Sqn code for 308 (Krakow) Sqn of the Polish airforce. However I am fairly sure Voytech is correct, on review, the movement card that I have appears to state 308fs.

Hello all – great discussion!

Seafuryfan – Thanks for you comments! We’ll likely do as you suggest and get an already made video installed to start, but what we’d like to have is a custom made movie from the actual cockpit of BL628. It would be great to have a Me109 in the movie as well and re-enact a dogfight… oh, the possibilities…..

QldSpitty – I might just have to hire you to do the graphics on the sim! 😉 We’d like to have BL628 splashed all over the side of the sim with a huge roundel etc etc etc…

Mark V – VoyTech – You’re both correct! Sorry Mark V, I don’t think I articulated myself very well when I was speaking about the Mk III’s and Mk Vb.

Marion was part of the Vickers Armstrong Contract No. B981687/39 out of Castle Bromwich. The third order of the contract was originally for 1000 Mk III’s but were built as Mk Vb’s of which BL628 was one. These Spits were built btwn November 1941 and May 1942. After being built BL628 went to 12 MU on 25 Jan 42. Her conversion to a hooked Spitfire occurred on 19 Jun 43.

I have fairly good details on her time line through the war and will be posting it on our site fairly soon. I’ll post when that info is up.

Thanks Mark V for your work on Marion – it’s greatly appreciated by our family.

Voytech – Our records show on 05 Aug 42, BL628 going to 308 SQD as ZF-? at Heston, Middlesex. Would this be correct? That wouldn’t be a polish or USAAF unit would it?

Mike J – That’s correct Blakeslee flew BL628 over a period from 05 Apr 42 to 24 May 42. He recorded 6 flights for 3hrs 15 min. We’ll also be putting a complete list of the pilots who flew her in the 401 SQD up on the site shortly. Thanks for the kind words as well!

DazDaMan – Like Mike J, thanks for the kind words!

I’ve finally found my disc full of great pics from our family archives and will be putting those up in our Gallery section of the site soon. Will post when complete.

Talk to you all soon,

Robert Flindall
Director
National Heritage Warbird Foundation
www.warbirdfoundation.org
[email]rob@warbirdfoundation.org[/email]

Here is a potted history of BL628
Built at Castle Bromwich, Birmingham, 1942.
12MU, Jan. 1942.
401 RCAF, Gravesend, Feb. 1942 to become the regular mounto of G.B. Murray who named it Marion after his girlfriend, during this time credited with two Fw190`s damaged, one Fw190 destroyed.
308 Sqn, August 1942.

Ian, it’s not ‘308 Sqn’ (which would be a Polish unit) but 308th FS (a USAAF unit).

she’s an earlier model Spitfire – a converted Mk. III

My understanding was that BL628 was built as a Mk Vb and later had an arrestor hook added but was not fully converted to Seafire status. These aircraft are generally known as ‘hooked Spitfires’ so she remained a Mk Vb and still is today.

Mark, I believe Robert referred to the fact that BL628 was a serial number in a batch originally ordered as Mk IIIs (Spitfire IIIs), but changed to Mk Vs before they were actually built.

Good luck with your ambition, Robert. I’ll be keen to see your progress.

she’s an earlier model Spitfire – a converted Mk. III

My understanding was that BL628 was built as a Mk Vb and later had an arrestor hook added but was not fully converted to Seafire status. These aircraft are generally known as ‘hooked Spitfires’ so she remained a Mk Vb and still is today. Good luck with getting the dosh together to buy her. I have fond memories of working on the restoration of the original surviving components of this aircraft back in the summer of 1989.

Ohhh yes that does look nice.Hope you have a good supply of motion sickness tablets on board.Have a full size profile of a Spit with a cloudy blue sky behind it and it will look great.Wasn,t that movie shown at the Imperial War museum as well?I did have it as a download from the internet but damned if I can find it now..

Flight Sim Idea

Hi Robert,

I don’t know if you are aware, but flight sims here in the UK similar to your illustration have featured a ‘Battle of Britain’ simulator ride as an alternative to the usual fast jet/space ride. I believe the movie was made using aircraft from the Old Flying Machine Company, and was filmed from the viewpoint of an ME109 (actually a Hispano Buchon, a very similar type) pilot engaged in a dogfight over the English Channel/Cliffs of Dover with Spitfires.

I thought it was an excellent film and I’m sure it is still available if you want to use it as a starting block for a flight sim. Perhaps you want to film your own custom made movie instead.

Whatever you do, the project sounds fantastic and I wish you the best of luck 🙂

Hello Brett and QldSpitty – thanks for your posts.

Brett – I’ve just read that recently too. Hopefully a certain Foundation will be the owners by then… 😉

QldSpitty – I’ve seen the cockpit section that fellow is making and it’s fantastic! I’m sure he’s had a few requests from numerous people regarding their Spit rebuilds. They way I look at it, he shouldn’t stop at the cockpit section – he should just keep building till he has a complete Spitfire. Now that would be an accomplishment.

What we’re after is a little bit different. It’s a full motion, mobile flight simulator similar to the one below :

Now imagine the simulator above completely painted in RCAF colours with BL628 splashed across the side, like the typhoon, coupled with a mobile museum dedicated to the men and women of the RCAF AND a static and aerial display of BL628 flown by the grandson of the fighter pilot from WWII. Now that’s an attraction!

It’s a matter now of putting this in front of the right sponsors who can see the vision we have for this project and making it a reality. Everything right now hinges on raising the capital to purchase BL628 and bring her home.

Thanks again for the posts and keep them coming!

Robert Flindall
Director
National Heritage Warbird Foundation
www.warbirdfoundation.org
[email]rob@warbirdfoundation.org[/email]

Welcome

What program are you using for the Flight sim?If I may I can recall Dave is building up a Spitfire Cockpit section to run Rowans Battle of Britain.His website is here http://simhardware.org/index.html .Been busy with other projects of late but he is a nice bloke with heaps of skills and info on setting one up.Good hunting…