Neil Williams

Learning_Slowly,

As Mark 12 points out, as at this moment, there is no paint on the airframe. It will be a little while before that happens.

Let’s give Ezells and the owner time to sort out what they want to do. Meanwhile, keep watching this space!

Regards,

Laurie.

Sounds fair. Looks good from the pictures you have posted.

I can go along with that.

Learning_Slowly,

Well externally it is not in the wrong colours yet.

Nelson Ezell has a very fine pedigree of restoring US carrier based heavy machinery over many years.

Let us give him and the owner the benefit of the doubt for the time being and get LaurieB to impress on them that help is available in the UK if they require it.

Mark

As it has been pointed out, if it is your aircraft it is upto you what colour you paint it. But I do wonder that someone who cares so much for that aircraft to buy it and spend a lot of money restoring it, you would have expected them to care about that aircraft, be passionate about it and at the least check that it was the right colour.

As long as it is preserved I don’t mind though, as has been pointed out the Americans did a better job than us.

Mark 12,

Thanks.

Excellent photo. I’m still trying for one on LA564. Haven’t had any luck yet. Like most Seafire photos, as rare as rocking horse droppings!!!:D

Regards,

Laurie.

Laurie,

Gloss finish date: No I don’t but I know a man who does and will come back to you.

Here is a shot of Mk 46 LA541 in the Extra Dark Sea Grey/ Dark Slate Grey and Sky gloss finish.

Now if we can just find one like this of LA564……………

Mark.

Unfortunately, none of my references appear to include that detail.

Any ideas, Mark 12?

Regards,

Laurie.

Very interesting information. Any idea when the first post war use of gloss paint was – not immediately after the end of hostilities but gradually introduced from the Seafire 17 (half Extra Dark Sea Grey/half Sky) onwards perhaps?

As Mark 12 points out, a grey/green topsurface finish is not too far from the mark (no pun intended!). Appendix X of “Spitfire – The History” shows a diagram of this (page 624). It seems that, although in-service examples of the FR Mk 47 never wore this style of camouflage, it had been intended to cover all the final marks of the Seafire in this style.

As for gloss, the surface was just that, as the following entry from the No. 804 NAS diary of the period shows. I quote:

“Monday – Jan 12th. The highlight of the day was the arrival of a “47” from Lee-on-Solent. Much time was spent admiring its high speed finish and looks in general. The general opinion seems to be that if its flying qualities are as nice as its looks we shall be well ‘within the vessel’!”

The 12th January, 1948, was the day after the Sqn reformed with the Mk. 47.

Droptank, I share your sentiments regarding the sale to the USA. Were it not for that, we would probably not be having this discussion now.

Regards,

Laurie.

Thanks for that mark 12 it sounds rather sad from a brit point of view,i know you cannot save all a/c but to let such a rare seafire to firstly sit there rotting then to have no takers over here is very sad,as i said without an american buying her were would she be now?.

Droptank,

Ormond Haydon-Baillie, if I recall correctly, brokered the sale of VP441 to John Stokes at San Marcos.

In 1973 post the ‘Reflectaire Saga’, the aircraft was available with Doug Bianchi at Booker, where the attached photo was taken. No UK takers ye of little foresight.

The FAAMus/RNHF does not have a very good track record on Seafires. They were pointed also at the Mk III PP972 available in France and flew a two place Hunter into Lorient to inspect it. They rejected it because of too much corrosion for STATIC Display. This is of course the ‘Flying A’ example.

Mark

Firebird,

What exactly is ceasing to amaze you – that they might get it right?

Grey/Green upper with sky undersurfaces would actually be a loose but fair description of a correct FAA scheme. Even gloss finish would be appropriate for post WWII.

Read: Extra Dark Sea Grey/ Dark Slate Grey (which looks green) and Sky

Mark

There is a lot of frustration when somebody makes all the effort to restore a plane but alters from the original,this FR47 being no different i saw this plane in 83 at san marcos i think it was then with john stokes mark 12 please advise,but if it was not for the americans were would this plane be now?.
I would love to see her in the uk but we lost her because we did not look after properly and has gone to a loving home we have only ourselves to blame.
Mark V/12 who is the lucky owner now please,its going to be a great addition to the spit/seafire flying population thats for sure.

A view of the starboard side at the time of recovery. The RN Queen Mary is just visible behind the aircraft.

Both photos taken by me at the time.

Regards,

Laurie.

As a follow-up to my last message, this is what VP441 looked like when she was recovered by the RN for HAPS mid-January, 1964. As is apparent, the move was very timely.

Regards,

Laurie.

Hi Firebird,

I am still awaiting the definitive answer re final paint finish from Ezells. I know that they have been talking to the owner about an authentic scheme. Painting will not start until the aircraft has some flight time under its belt. Possibly in a couple of months time.

I think that this point goes back to a very lengthy discussion earlier this year on this board, the right of the owner to apply whatever scheme he feels is appropriate. We might not all agree with that, but I think that we have to respect it.

However, I will keep trying for an authentic look to be applied.

As for why the aircraft did not go to the RNHF, only they can answer that. The RN had the airframe at Culdrose, for restoration, from Jan 64 until they delivered it to Lavenham for the Relectaire Collection on 20 July 1969. During that time, it was restored to static condition. Even they did not paint the airframe in authentic markings. The overall colour scheme was correct, but the roundels were the wrong size, as was the stencilling. However, the improvement was plain to see when the aircraft was later displayed at several ‘At Home’ days.

Prior to the 70’s/80’s, the RN seems to have had a very lax policy regarding preservation of aircraft and the associated documentation. If VP441 had not been able to fit into the space between our two training huts at 335 Sqn, it was to be consigned to the scrapheap. The FAA also destroyed all documents for aircraft of this era in the late 50’s/early 60’s. Hence the difficulty today in getting hold of any official information on VP441 and other FAA airframes from that time.

Regards,

Laurie.

Originally posted by lauriebe

At that stage, they were planning on a grey/green scheme for the uppersurfaces and Sky undersurfaces.

😮 😡 😡
Never ceases to amaze me me this sort of thing……
Surprised the owner doesn’t want to paint it in psuedo Eagle squadron Battle of Britain style markings…….:rolleyes:

Or perhaps dayglo lime green with orange spots, now that would be tasteful and appropiate:p

Why the hell was this airframe never rescued for the RNHF…:(

Mark V/Mark 12

When I visited Ezells just over 2 years ago, I gave them every thing I had on colour schemes that were applied to the aircraft through its service and talked to them at length on this matter. However, I believe the owner has other ideas.

At that stage, they were planning on a grey/green scheme for the uppersurfaces and Sky undersurfaces. I recently queried whether this was still the case. No reply yet.

I also wrote directly to the owner with a plea for an authentic scheme. I didn’t get a response.

I will try to get an update from Ezells again.

As Mark 12 mentioned, there have been several “mods”. Gun and ammo bays have been stripped out and fitted as extra fuel tanks. This has led to the removal of the blisters on the top wing surfaces where the cannon feed mechanisms were. Also, all camera ports have been deleted.

Regards,

Laurie.

PS

Post war Naval Aircraft, including Seafire 46 and 47.

Cockpit interior colour: Black/Night

Mark