Neutral countries at war

Neutral Countries at War

Hi Dave Homewood,
I was checking my records and find two of your fellow New Zealanders landed in Neutral Ireland. Sub Lt. Bruce N Girdleston force landed his Martlet in Donegal on 21 Dec. 1941 and was interned. Sub Lt. Gerald Wills Worner force landed in the same county in a Hellcat on 24 June 1945 he was handed back over the border and was uninjured. I wonder are they still with us? On a different note, thanks Spit for your posting.
Tony K

Swizerland acquired 89 Bf 109E-3 in 1939 which served until 1948. All of them except one were broken up and some parts (undercarriage and instruments) were used in the Pilatus P-2. One example (J-355) was spared and is on display in the Swiss AF museum in Dübendorf near Zürich. The Swiss also operated the Morane-Saulnier D.3801 (Swiss version of the Morane MS.406) as an interceptor during WWII. One of them was recently restored to airworthy condition and can be seen at displays in Switzerland throughout the season.

As regards interned aircraft in Sweden, Boeing B-17G 42-32076 “Shoo Shoo Baby” was one of these, being civilanized in Sweden as SE-BAP, then passing through Danish Air Lines (DDL) A/S as OY-DFA from 28.05.1946, Danish AF as 67-672 and finally the French IGN before being acquired by the USAF Museum, restored and put on display there where it can be seen today.

Thanks to all for the many replies. This is certainly an interesting topic.

Thanks too for the extra details Crazymainer, fingers crossed that your Great-Aunt comes up with some interesting photos.

All the best
Dave

Hi All,

Dave I called my Aunt and talk to her about my Graet-Uncle, it seems he saw alot of action during BoB he was stationed in France and Later ended up like many others on the Russian front.

The reason he defect back was because most of his Squadron ended up being captured by the Russians so he flew his Mistel to a USAF controlled base in France.

I ask her to see if they had any photos if they do she is going to send them to me to copy onto disk.

Flood, Their was a great article some time back on the Mistel progects and they used all sorts of bomber/fighter combos.

I’ve seen photos of 88/109, 88/190, 111/190 and a wrecked 110/88 mind you some of these were in the field mods. I know that Junkers build 250 88 versions.

The main reason he defect back was he did’nt like alot of the German Air Force be taken by the Russians.

Dave Homewood, if you’re still there, here is a great summary of the Swedish airline ABA’s history.
This site has many other airline histories too!

http://airlines.afriqonline.com/airlines/551.htm

😀

Hi there Tony
Just to say NO OFFENCE MEANT , NONE TAKEN I see what you mean now.
All the BEST
SPIT

Originally posted by Eric Mc
A small number, a few Hurricanes, a Battle and a Walrus (the example now in the FAA Museum) were operated by the Air Corps. The Hurricanes were actually bought from Britain when the war ended.
The Walrus was, for a while, owned by Aer Lingus, although to what use they could have put such an aircraft is beyond me.

The Walrus was one of three which were sold to Eire pre-war. It later went to the Aer Lingus flying club, so presumably they used it for joy-rides and the like.

Flood.

Neutral Countries at War

Hi Eric,
Your mention of the ASI hit the memory button,great to hear from you I do remember you and hope that you are doing very well in UK. Best wishes
Tony K

Neutral Countries at War

Hi Spit, I have to disagree with you” a very good book”. In the appendix of 7 pages there are at least 85 errors of varying degrees from major to minor. The author claims that” 220 belligerent aircraft of all descriptions both Allied and German came down in Eire” The Irish Dept. of Defence, The Irish Air Corps and Irish Military Archives list 165, I can account for 168, so where are these mysterious aircraft? There are misidentifications of aircraft and types, there does not seem to be an understanding of squadrons e.g RAAF is identified as Royal Auxiliary Air Force for someone who claims to be a “military and aviation historian” should know that the Royal was not granted to the Auxiliary Squadrons until after the war. There is a full description a force landing in Donegal which did not occur and names a crew member as being the pilot when in fact he was a bombadier in a B17 which landed about 60 miles away. Spit this is not a criticism of you.
Tony K

Hi Tony – point taken. I hadn’t realised that the 1937 Constitution officially dropped “The Irish Free State/Saorstat Eireann” nomenclature.

I well remember you making some sort of presentation on the Irish Army Air Corps at an ASI meeting at Shell House back in 1978/79 period – unless I’m very much mistaken.

Hi
Re Allied and Axis a/c that landed or were forced down in IRELAND there is a very good book by DONAL MacCARRON titled Landfall Ireland which was published in 2003 isbn 1 904242 03 0 and this gives the fate of every A/C that came down(or flew away) with all the crews names and units they came from. If you are interested I would recommend that you get it.
All the Best
SPIT
“ps Please excuse any spelling mistakes”

Neutral Countries at War

Eric Mc, as this is a historical forum and in an unpolitical context I would like to mention to Eric Mc a fellow Dubliner that the name of the country is Ireland (Eire in the native tongue). Under the 1937 Constitution it was changed from the Irish Free State. You are of course quite correct that there is no memorial but all are honoured each year as Irishmen and Irishwomen who died in all wars.
Allan 125 Mentions the fact that German dead from all over Ireland were reinterred in Glencree 12 miles South of Dublin. I often wonder why the UK authorities did not do the same for its dead. Many lie in lonely and isolated graves. I have visited many, usually after trudging many miles over narrow tracks having left my car. How difficult it must be for elderly relatives to visit the last resting places. On the other hand the Germans come to Glencree every year to honour their dead in a dedicated location.
Tony K

About Spaniards in the German Wehrmacht:
There was the “Blue Division” under Gen. Agustín Muñoz Grandes, aka the 250th Division of the Wehrmacht. They were 88 fighter pilots volunteering for combat duty on the Eastern Front from 1941 to 1944. Additionally there were a couple of hundreds Spaniards who volunteered in Waffen-SS combat units (101st and 102nd Freiwilligenkompanie (spanisch)), they lost their Spanish cititzenship, the last returning from Russian POW camps in 1954.

See link for details (also about other nationalities in the Wehrmacht):
http://www.feldgrau.com/foreign.html
But the list is not complete, there were also a handful of Canadians.

Regarding aircraft which inadvertantly ended up in the Irish Free State – most of them tended to be written off in the incident which caused them to come down in the first place so they were unusable by the Irish Army Air Corps. Secondly, Ireland didn’t have the resources to operate a lot of the larger aircraft that might have been repairable to flying condition. Thirdly, although officially neutral, unlike (say) Spain or Portugal, Ireland was (and still is) a democracy so had little sympathy with Hitler or Mussolini so there would have been no way they could have obtained any technical support to keep any German aircraft flying. In the end, I’m pretty sure large Allied aircraft were either transported by road to Northern Ireland or flown directly back to the UK. A small number, a few Hurricanes, a Battle and a Walrus (the example now in the FAA Museum) were operated by the Air Corps. The Hurricanes were actually bought from Britain when the war ended.
The Walrus was, for a while, owned by Aer Lingus, although to what use they could have put such an aircraft is beyond me.

As far as personnel were concerned, Germans who ended up in Eire were interned for the duration of the war. Allied airmen were usually interned for a short period and then repatriated to the UK – usually via Holyhead or by train to Belfast. The system was so casual that the airmen were usally given their train or boat tickets, a lift into Dublin city centre, and then were allowed to make their own way home.

Thanks Papa.

Papa Lima, waht is ABA? Is it a Swedish airline? Have any of the Allied planes that were captured been kept to this day in museums?
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In answer to your qestions, Dave, A B Aerotransport (ABA) began as a domestic airline in Sweden and was one of the Swedish operators that eventually became part of SAS.

On my visit to the RSwAF museum at Linköping next month (the subject of a previous thread I put on this Forum) I shall find out whether any of the interned (not exactly “captured”) aircraft still exist in Sweden or elsewhere.

The Swedish volunteer unit, F19 operated in northern Finland for 62 days during the Winter War 1939-40. The Finnish and Swedish pilots had made several squadron visits between the two countries prior to the war so there were already very good ties between the air forces.

More info can be found at
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/f19-1.htm

Hmm. First I’ve heard of a He111/Fw190 Mistel unit.
More likely a Ju88/Fw190… Unless anyones got any pictures?

Flood.

In April 1942, during an op to bomb Tirpitz in Norway, a 10 Sqdn Halifax flown by Wing Commander Don Bennett & crew was shot down. All crew managed to bale out safely and landed in occupied Norway. Three were captured and taken POW. Four, including Wing Commander Bennett (later to become leader of the Pathfinders) evaded capture and made their way on foot and by ski over the mountains to neutral Sweden.

The four that made it to Sweden were taken to an Internment Camp where they were interrogated. Wing Commander Bennett was returned to England within two weeks, his second pilot within a month. The W/Op and Flight Engineer were not returned to England for over a year, although their ‘captivity’ in Sweden seems to have given them the freedom to find employment and also to live outside the internment camp.

I believe the reason given for Wing Commander Bennetts swift return home was because he told the Swedes that he was an escapee rather than an evader (he was in fact an evader). Apparently the protocol for escapees was that they were immediately repatriated while evaders had to wait it out.

Perhaps someone will have further details that will clarify the difference between treatment of escapees and evaders?

Thanks a lot everyone, this is all realy interesting indeed. I had forgotten all about the Irish being neutral too. Thanks for those details.

Crazymainer – a pity that your great-uncle didn’t slip back into America quietly and hide the He111/Fw190 combination in a barn, eh! Imagine the value of that now. Did he see much active service while in the Luftwaffe? What made him change allegiances?

Robblec, I had read a book where a British pilot escaped over the Pyrenees to freedom. He hadn’t been imprisoned, but instead helped back to Britain just as if he’d entered Switzerland. So this must have been later in the war and there definately must have been a policy change.

Papa Lima, waht is ABA? Is it a Swedish airline? Have any of the Allied planes that were captured been kept to this day in museums?

Great. If anyone has more stories to add I’m keen to hear. 🙂