New 777 Freighter (Merged)

Always glad to be of service. 🙂

OK, in the sense of the accusation, 😮
I should have first posted it in the thread “Air France/KLM order 777F”

Mods, thanks for merging! 🙂

The story on boeing.com is from today though…

Errr….. this isn’t exactly red-hot news, fightingirish. 🙂

Official: Boeing Launches New 777 Freighter

SEATTLE, May 24, 2005 – Boeing [NYSE:BA] today officially launched the Boeing 777 Freighter, the world’s largest and most capable twin-engine freighter, following the completion of a launch order from Air France. […]

Source: Boeing.com – Boeing Launches New 777 Freighter

There’s no rationality (in terms of fact) to that unfortunately Peter.
The 747, 757, 777, MD11 and 727 all were/are/will be, offered as factory new freighters when the PAX varients were still selling, most of them well. Those the the ones that came into my head while writing this. There’s the A310F too, but that was more or less a product after the PAX varient ceased bringing in orders. But those are still factory built freighters, not conversions.

Yes, those planes where offered new as freighters. And yes, those planes where still selling for pax airlines. BUT, at that time the number of pax planes sold got smaller. This is not something to be embarassed about. A plane has a certain life cycle. It starts to sell, sells more, sells yet more and then levels out at a certain level of annual sales. A few years later it will decline.

Decline that is, unless new variants are offered. This could be increased ranger (ER/LR etc) or more capacity (100/200/300/400 etc) or “special mission” planes. And that’s where the freighters come in, as well as military applications.

With the exception of the 747 and the A380 there is not a single NEW planetype that was offered immediately as a freighter. And the only reason the 747 and the A380 where (are) offered as such was because there was (is) nothing quite like it in its size range.

Another reason for the 747 to be launched as a freighter was because it was a tweaked design of a proposed USAF cargo plane. Add to that the fact that Boeing expected the 747 to fail as a pax airliner. General consensus back then was that supsersonic was the pax way of the future. Only freight was expected to take slow, large planes. The oil crisis quickly put that theory to the history books.

Now many planes are launched with freight versions in mind. But not launched as such from the get go.

Also, who’s to say the A330 will be a popular freighter? What do you base this on? (genuine questions folks) Commonality means next to nothing to cargo operators so thats not in contention as a reason. Also, I beleive Boeing have already said the 787 is too PAX orientated to be a valid option for a freighter/tanker version.

I don’t know if it will be popular. But I still think that 2nd hand planes will be most popular. And if that theory is to prove true than eventually those A330s now flying pax will be converted to freighters. Size and range wise it seems to be a good replacement for the MD-11. The A330 will face stiff competition then from the 777 though, although some operators may find the 777 overkill due to it’s size.

You’re right that Boeing said the 787 is too optizimed for cargo. I am very curious how and why. It seems a daft decision to make a plane that can be used for one mission only. Personally I would not be surprised if this was said by Boeing to force the USAF into taking 767s. The latter would be preferred for Boeing because it would mean more production slots are available for more lucrative passenger planes.

Let’s put it this way. Boeing is guaranteed of the USAF contract, I think we can both agree on that (the timing and terms have yet to be determined). Now since they are guaranteed this, Boeing ought to put all their trump cards towards those customers it can loose. The passenger airlines. Therefore Boeing needs all 787 production slots for passenger airlines. The airlines will not go for the 767 anymore, with the exception of a handful airlines that want to expand their current fleet. That number will not be large considering the number of good 2nd hand 767s already available.

Most likely because it is still too new. Freighters tend to take old 2nd hand planes. First the DC8 and the 707. When the number of those 2nd hand planes dropped the 300 and DC10 became popular. Followed soon after by the MD11 and increasingly the 767.

Passengers complain when a plane does not look new(ish). Freight does not. So there are two options. Either a passenger airline does a “Northwest Airways” and updates their planes. Another option is to take a “Singapore Airlines” and replace the planes every five year. Some options in between, but generally speaking passenger airlines don’t like older planes.

Just wait 5 or 6 years and the A330 will be a popular freight plane as well. Followed 10 year later by the 787 and A350.

There’s no rationality (in terms of fact) to that unfortunately Peter.
The 747, 757, 777, MD11 and 727 all were/are/will be, offered as factory new freighters when the PAX varients were still selling, most of them well. Those the the ones that came into my head while writing this. There’s the A310F too, but that was more or less a product after the PAX varient ceased bringing in orders. But those are still factory built freighters, not conversions.

True, a lot of freighters are ex-pax birds… buts hardly for the reasons you note.

Also, who’s to say the A330 will be a popular freighter? What do you base this on? (genuine questions folks) Commonality means next to nothing to cargo operators so thats not in contention as a reason. Also, I beleive Boeing have already said the 787 is too PAX orientated to be a valid option for a freighter/tanker version.

Apparently theres something about the A330s design that does not lend itself well to a freighter conversion. Not 100% what it is or if that is indeed true.

Most likely because it is still too new. Freighters tend to take old 2nd hand planes. First the DC8 and the 707. When the number of those 2nd hand planes dropped the 300 and DC10 became popular. Followed soon after by the MD11 and increasingly the 767.

Passengers complain when a plane does not look new(ish). Freight does not. So there are two options. Either a passenger airline does a “Northwest Airways” and updates their planes. Another option is to take a “Singapore Airlines” and replace the planes every five year. Some options in between, but generally speaking passenger airlines don’t like older planes.

Just wait 5 or 6 years and the A330 will be a popular freight plane as well. Followed 10 year later by the 787 and A350.

Apparently theres something about the A330s design that does not lend itself well to a freighter conversion. Not 100% what it is or if that is indeed true.

Not sure about. At least they have designed the tanker / cargo version for millitary use based on the A330. So it should be possible.

Is this a typo…or am I missing something? :confused:

This is the most recent list I’ve got (EuroJP 2004). Since this list two planes must have been retired? Otherwise the article would be missing two.

B747-228F (SCD) … F-BPVR … 21255/295
B747-228F (SCD) … F-BPVZ … 21787/398
B747-2B3F (SCD) … F-GBOX … 21835/388
B747-228B (SF) … F-CGBD … 22428/503
B747-228B (SF) … F-CGBF … 22794/558
B747-228F (SCD) … F-CGBG … 22939/569
B747-228B (SF) … F-CGBH … 23611/656
B747-228F (SCD) … F-GCBK … 24158/714
B747-228F (SCD) … F-GCBL … 24735/772
B747-228F (SCD) … F-GCBM … 24879/822

Just an “other story” + AF-KLM news

woah, that one slipped past me!

Thats not like you, I presumed you had Boeing’s news page set as your homepage 😉

Here the source at Boeing.com, not a “Top story”, just an “other story” 😉 :
Boeing Statement on Air France Selection of the 777 Freighter
Just added:
At the Board of Directors meeting held on 18 May, the Air France-KLM Group decided to order 5 two-engined Boeing 777F freighters as part of its plan to renew the Air France Cargo fleet and took out an option on 3 additional aircraft, scheduled to be phased in as from autumn 2008. These aircraft are intended to replace the 747-200Fs, which are no longer cost efficient given their age and the steep increase in fuel costs……

The carrier has been working to phase out its 12 Boeing 747-200Fs since 2002, to comply with environmental regulations. This phase-out process will be completed by the beginning of 2009.

Air France’s cargo fleet comprises eight Boeing 747-200Fs and four 747-400ERFs.

Is this a typo…or am I missing something? :confused:

A very good niche market is to be cornered here – not many A300/310/MD11/DC10s left for conversion – in 5 years or so the likes of DHL, FEDEX, UPS et al may be swarming around these!

Will be interesting to see if an A330-200 conversion is offered.

Apparently theres something about the A330s design that does not lend itself well to a freighter conversion. Not 100% what it is or if that is indeed true.

The announcement is now official, but the unofficial gossip could be found right here weeks ago.

A very good niche market is to be cornered here – not many A300/310/MD11/DC10s left for conversion – in 5 years or so the likes of DHL, FEDEX, UPS et al may be swarming around these!

Will be interesting to see if an A330-200 conversion is offered.

Goood news the 777-200FR as a huge potential imho. MD-11Fs are hard to get and most DC-10F are in need of an replacement. The market for a dedicated long range freighter below the 747F and the A380F is pretty much uncovered.

I saw this on the a.net forum days ago.

But not wanting to quote from such untrustworthy souce, I didn’t say anything :rolleyes: 😉

woah, that one slipped past me!

Thats not like you, I presumed you had Boeing’s news page set as your homepage 😉

woah, that one slipped past me!