New Pakistani Frigates (pics)

The same shipyards that uses modern technology to build civilian ships to Western standard of quality will be doing so for military ships. And from all I have read, the latest 052B/C are built to higher quality than the Sovs.

From where you have read about the quality of 052B/C, I would like to read it about too..???

But Fitz is partially right. There are/have been quite alot of cases where to quality of chinese shipbuilding/designing is rather poor. Add to those already mentioned, for example the chinese build Romeos which were bought by Egyptians had their engines wore out during their delivering voyage and the first 052 Luhu class vessel had its comparament for its LM-2500 gasturbines wrongly meassured that intially the turbines didn’t fit to the room.

But it should be noted that the proplems have mainly been on the 052 and 025T which were both the very first chinese “modern” shipdesings. Actually the 025T was given priority over the 052 which however being earlier design had to wait for the exportships to be launched first. It’s completely natural that if you are just starting to do something in a field and scale previously unknown to you that you start that road with shake steps. None is master at birth. Chinese modern shibuilding has been around less than 20 years so even today its no wonder nor shame to have issues, it would be miracle if there weren’t any.

And yeas chinese shipbuilding quality has improved, its also quite natural that it does. And yeas you can roughly use the civil-sector as a indicator of military shipquality (tough only roughly) but the real point is how much? Altough china has improved, I doupt that the level is still no way near the highest quality that is out there. Like the mentioned 052B/C being higher quality than pr. 956 (which I personally doupt) could be true but who said soviet warshipbuilding quality of the 80’s was anyway near the current western standarts??

Sadly many chinese internetwarrior thinks that china is some sort of world class player in modern high-standart warship shipbuilding/designing when in reality china is still a noob in that field, learning to do stuff and taking small and safe steps at the time. IMO china is actually doing wise moves and not rushing to mass-producing inmature designs like certain another superpower did when it was in the same situation when looking the shipdevelopment sector.

One thing however should be noted when talking about the chinese shipquality. That is the apparent maintaining skills of PLAN to keep those poor quality ships in service. Almoust all chinese warships have seen quite extensive careers and I doupt that the PLAN Jianghu’s and Romeos were any better in craftmanships than their export counterparts. Still PLAN have managed to kept them in service as any other navy with their large warships. The absolute triumph of this was the Ex WW-II-era soviet Type 7 class destroyer. Those ships were famous of them being poorly designed and build and many broke up in the soviet hands during the war. Still China manged to keep those ships in service for nearly 50 years! I quess wha the chinese lack in building quality they make up with maintenance and repair skills.

Is this the same level of improvement they have demonstrated in say, light truck tires, dog food and childrens toys?

alright, let’s clear this up, since I’m pretty much sick of this kind of comments in light of the recent China bashing.

USA imports more from China than anyone else in the world. In terms of %, the amount of failed products from China is actually lower than other countries. It just happens when you export such a huge volume, you are going to get a larger absolute amount that’s going to fail.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/IG18Cb01.html
“A recent New York Times report, citing US Food and Drug Administration data, showed that China was far from alone in exporting goods of poor quality and was not the worst offender. For example, while seafood from China was impounded 391 times last year, produce from the Dominican Republic was seized 817 times and candy from Denmark 520 times. India and Mexico also compared unfavorably with China. Nevertheless, the common perception in the US and elsewhere is that China is the chief perpetrator of export fraud and danger. “

And secondly, when the importers are looking for the cheapest deal in China from small/unlicensed companies. Why are they so surprised when these guys produce subpar products? Why isn’t Mattel taking blame for this?

Facetiousness aside, I would point out that…

A. You have provided no evidence of dramatic improvements in the civil shipbuilding sector.

get bloomberg or reuters + read what the South Koreans/Japanese have to say.

B. Such improvements in no way imply improvements in the military shipbuilding sector.

The same shipyards that uses modern technology to build civilian ships to Western standard of quality will be doing so for military ships. And from all I have read, the latest 052B/C are built to higher quality than the Sovs.

The Pakistani ships are directly descended from previous Chinese domestic and export frigate classes and share many of the same fundamental design features. Even if quality control had been improved the inherent weaknesses of these designs remain and the limited combat power is self-evident. Let’s face it, no one is buying Chinese military hardware because it is the best built and most state of the art. They buy because its cheap and the Chinese will sell to just about anyone.

my comments were not aimed at F-22P, but your downplay of China shipbuilding sector in general.

The issue here isnt one of combat power, marginal or otherwise, its whether the hulls meet the requirement. If the PN’s requirement is for a Patrol Frigate capable of modest-threat level engagement, on paper at least, the F22’s meet that better than anything else in the inventory.

That the PN has acquired that ‘capability upgrade’ cheaply and without encroaching on the funding for anything else is a considerable victory for the PN. IF the induction of the type leads to an indigenous naval construction (if short of design!) capability then it is hard to see how Pakistan could have got a better deal!.

The giant catch in all this, like Fitz and others describe, is that it all hinges on the design and build quality of the product delivered. The Thai and Egyptian vessels have been text-book examples, in many ways, of how not to design and build warships. Even the basics such as designing in access-panels when running vital wiring looms behind bulkheads were ignored. The Egyptian Navy especially have been quite comprehensive in their opinion of their Chinese vessels. This, it must be noted, is not down to any lack of design skill that the Chinese may have recently caught up on – it takes little genius to design in maintenance access to critical systems, rather, it was the quality of design, making sure that these sort of factors were correct, that was needed to be found in Chinese yards.

The only real way we can be certain whether this is an issue that the Chinese naval shipbuilding industry has addressed, it seems, will be from the reports from the PN about how the F22’s are received. Until then, whether the F22 program has been a really good deal or a really bad one will be an imponderable!.

Fitz, no one is under any impression that the PN went for chinese frigates or even JF-17 due to their quality or capability. Both provide pakistan with rudimentary capability of building something they have never ever done at the cheapest cost and even on loan. No other country would do the same for pakistan. What would you have done instead?
I would definitely have preferred the T-23’s to these but PN couldn’t cough up the money. The Greek ships are only marginally better being 25 years old. This was the last option. Just go with it.

I regard the improvement it made in civilian shipbuilding as an indicator of the improvement in just the warship building.

Is this the same level of improvement they have demonstrated in say, light truck tires, dog food and childrens toys?

Facetiousness aside, I would point out that…

A. You have provided no evidence of dramatic improvements in the civil shipbuilding sector.

B. Such improvements in no way imply improvements in the military shipbuilding sector.

The Pakistani ships are directly descended from previous Chinese domestic and export frigate classes and share many of the same fundamental design features. Even if quality control had been improved the inherent weaknesses of these designs remain and the limited combat power is self-evident. Let’s face it, no one is buying Chinese military hardware because it is the best built and most state of the art. They buy because its cheap and the Chinese will sell to just about anyone.

This is what you regard as proof?:confused:

I regard the improvement it made in civilian shipbuilding as an indicator of the improvement in just the warship building.

you are basing your theory on something China built in the early 90s? Chinese shipbuilding quality has gone up a lot in the decade and half. There is a reason Thailand ordered OPVs from China after F-25Ts.

This is what you regard as proof?:confused:

Yeah actually, it is a couple of decades behind. The obvious stealth features are no more radical than what was being done in the late 1980’s and certainly well behind what would be considered acceptable in current western design.

Chinese frigates for export are notorious for quality control issues and light and flimsy construction. The Thai frigates for example have severe restrictions on firing their 5-inch guns due to problems with hull cracking and buckling. Damage control features are nothing to write home about.

The superstructure on these Pakistani frigates is surprisingly compact which means restricted internal volume for useful things like command and control electronics. Whatever combat system is fitted is likely to be based on a Chinese copy of the 80’s-vintage TAVITAC, itself a growth item from the 1970’s-vintage Vega FCS. The search/TI radar looks like Sea Tiger – hardly state of the art.

Propulsion is obviously diesel with little apparent effort to reduce IR signatures. Don’t expect these ships to be particularly fast or quiet.

The armament is your basic light patrol frigate fair, perfectly adequate for presence missions but offering limited real offensive or defensive firepower. Vertical launch for self-defense missiles has been the norm for 2 decades yet these ships will apparently still rely on the trainable, single-channel Crotale clone. Do I need to point out this weapon dates back to about 1971? The CIWS setup is interesting, apparently being the new 30mm type but without on-mount fire control. That means the two guns share a director making for one, rather than 2 fire control channels. ASW torpedo tubes I presume are concealed behind the hatches in the hull aft, which means they are old-fashioned trainable lightweight tubes, possibly without reloads.

Again, overall there is nothing to be impressed with here.

you are basing your theory on something China built in the early 90s? Chinese shipbuilding quality has gone up a lot in the decade and half. There is a reason Thailand ordered OPVs from China after F-25Ts.

More importantly this would allow them to build the first ever frigate in pakistan. Also compared to t-21’s the F-22p’s have a better weapons fit. PN has been active in the CTF-150 initiative to counter piracy and drug running in northern arabian sea, persian gulf region. These boats are perfect for that. Any idea if PN is still negotiating for the RN OPV’s and Elli class frigates?

These are essentially large OPV’s/gunboats, clearly they’re way behind the curve of advanced types building elsewhere or for China itself, equally for the needs of Pakistan they’re perfectly adequate and give them new build ships up to the job of counter-terrorism and counter-narco and policing duties as well as bulking up their fleet at an affordable price. Let’s face it, the T21 was a mediocre type little more than a glorified OPV/gunboat.

Its all about money. PN couldn’t afford 350 mil to buy the 3 T-23 frigates. Why do you expect them to be able to afford a Meko-200,F-100 or FREMM?? The F-22p’s are basically build on loan from china and would help Pakistan make the first frigate ever in pakistan.

The design is not twenty years behind the times, it is for example comparatively stealthy which is a more recent trend – say compared to OHP. Not saying it’s a world beater or anything but I think your words are too harsh and underestimate the current standard of Chinese warships.

Yeah actually, it is a couple of decades behind. The obvious stealth features are no more radical than what was being done in the late 1980’s and certainly well behind what would be considered acceptable in current western design.

Chinese frigates for export are notorious for quality control issues and light and flimsy construction. The Thai frigates for example have severe restrictions on firing their 5-inch guns due to problems with hull cracking and buckling. Damage control features are nothing to write home about.

The superstructure on these Pakistani frigates is surprisingly compact which means restricted internal volume for useful things like command and control electronics. Whatever combat system is fitted is likely to be based on a Chinese copy of the 80’s-vintage TAVITAC, itself a growth item from the 1970’s-vintage Vega FCS. The search/TI radar looks like Sea Tiger – hardly state of the art.

Propulsion is obviously diesel with little apparent effort to reduce IR signatures. Don’t expect these ships to be particularly fast or quiet.

The armament is your basic light patrol frigate fair, perfectly adequate for presence missions but offering limited real offensive or defensive firepower. Vertical launch for self-defense missiles has been the norm for 2 decades yet these ships will apparently still rely on the trainable, single-channel Crotale clone. Do I need to point out this weapon dates back to about 1971? The CIWS setup is interesting, apparently being the new 30mm type but without on-mount fire control. That means the two guns share a director making for one, rather than 2 fire control channels. ASW torpedo tubes I presume are concealed behind the hatches in the hull aft, which means they are old-fashioned trainable lightweight tubes, possibly without reloads.

Again, overall there is nothing to be impressed with here.

A little disappointing when compared with the models that were floating about. The ships may not be modern or very powerful but compared to what PN has at the moment(6 outdated Type-21’s) they are a good addition. The Type-21’s are really old and will have to go in another 3-5 years. Type-23’s would have been a much better addition but chile beat them to it.Other attractive features would be the loan provided by China and TOT to build one in Karachi.THe frigate does look a little like F-25T.

say compared to OHP

Which is about 3 decades old design:rolleyes: 😉

F-22P is basicly a Jiangwei (from which it is directly derivated) with slightly enlargened hull and bit smoother lines in the hull and updated armament. The design if I recall correctly was being marketed before none of the 054s for examble wherer yet to be launched…

A thoroughly unmodern and unexciting basic patrol frigate design. Typical of Chinese surface warships this one appears to be about 2 decades behind the state of the art and is probably as lightly and flimsily built as its cousins in service with Egypt, Thailand, etc.

For a Navy whose most modern surface combattants are older than most of the men who serve on them these ships will be better than nothing, but they will hardly change the military balance in the region.

The design is not twenty years behind the times, it is for example comparatively stealthy which is a more recent trend – say compared to OHP. Not saying it’s a world beater or anything but I think your words are too harsh and underestimate the current standard of Chinese warships.

A thoroughly unmodern and unexciting basic patrol frigate design. Typical of Chinese surface warships this one appears to be about 2 decades behind the state of the art and is probably as lightly and flimsily built as its cousins in service with Egypt, Thailand, etc.

For a Navy whose most modern surface combattants are older than most of the men who serve on them these ships will be better than nothing, but they will hardly change the military balance in the region.

Of cos, they are export item plus they are value for money. U want good stuff then u better pay more! It’s all abt balancing yr military budget. Not every country can afford a AB destroyer. F-22P fits Pakistan military budget.

A thoroughly unmodern and unexciting basic patrol frigate design. Typical of Chinese surface warships this one appears to be about 2 decades behind the state of the art and is probably as lightly and flimsily built as its cousins in service with Egypt, Thailand, etc.

For a Navy whose most modern surface combattants are older than most of the men who serve on them these ships will be better than nothing, but they will hardly change the military balance in the region.

The key is building ships in Pakistan, keeping as much of the construction costs in the nation spurring the economy and jobs within Pakistan. With the F22Ps Pakistan will build one of four ships, including a large investment by China in the shipyard. With future ships, if Pakistan can build one or two ships, or build modules for all of the ships, and do this well, there could be other ship modules to build, even civilian cargo modules and/or ships. I expect with this next order Pakistan attempting to build two of the four ships whether Chinese or European ships. Eventually all may be built n Pakistan, or only one of four ships abroad.

The new Chinese frigates, twice the size of these, have slightly better weapons, but are they worth twice as much. I believe Pakistan will be happy with these four, especially building the last one in Pakistan. It appears the next order will be for slightly larger and more capable frigates, probably including vertical SAMs.

I would think Pakistan will want at least four of these, possibly Type 054s. If Pakistan eventually orders 4 or more of these, and with 4 of the F22Ps, Pakistan will have modernized their surface navy by 2020.

And if Pakistan were able to build two or more of the Type 054s within Pakistan, the shipyard investment by China on the last F22P frigate will be a great asset. The costs of building new frigates in Pakistan will have a positive effect on its economy.

Indeed. Never the less they somehow look “old school” compared to other recently build (also Chinese) ships, don´t you think?

Regards.