Newly historic jets

😉 The latest rumour is Kemble; before onwards elsewhere (USA or South Africa! :confused:)

Newly Historic Jets – Dominie

I was suddenly reminded of earlier times when today, at Cranwell, the noise of 2 vipers, which has been absent for some months, suddenly caught my ear and an RAF Dominie got airborne and departed. I was aware that most of these aircraft were still at CRN, only 1 having been flown out fairly recently for preservation (to Cosford). Where was today’s aircraft going? (I suppose I could ring Ops Wg tomorrow but someone on this forum may already know).;)

Collapse is only a matter of opinion

… or a matter of semantics, it seems :rolleyes:

Sorry I should have been clearer re the Dominies – they are still at Cranwell but I believe that their next destination is still open to speculation – I have also heard South Africa mentioned!

(Dominies) not sure where they are now but they were at Cranwell still until recently but with US registrations issued.

I believe that there may be some light to be cast on this matter by reference to a quote by Sir Humphry Appleby:

It is characteristic of all committee discussions and decisions that every member has a vivid recollection of them and that every member’s recollection of them differs violently from every other member’s recollection. Consequently, we accept the convention that the official decisions are those and only those which have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, from which it emerges with an elegant inevitability that any decision which has been officially reached will have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials and any decision which is not recorded in the minutes has not been officially reached even if one or more members believe they can recollect it, so in this particular case, if the decision had been officially reached it would have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, and it isn’t so it wasn’t.

Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Overboard_(Yes,_Prime_Minister)

…T/O mention of Dominies, what has happened to them?
It seems like the MoD try and ask too much for some airframes, while seem very helpful to museums in others (ie Nimrods).

I believe that it’s something to do with ‘the market economy’ – some airframes command a good potential purchase price, whilst others may cost a lot to ‘return to parts’; ‘recycle’ or dispose of – whatever the ‘in-terminology’ is this week! 🙁

Mixed stories re the Dominies – Kemble? USA??? :confused:

Also remember ‘most’ disposals are a tender based process rather than a price being set – apart from possible reserve price!

No need to look sad, the question has been answered and an interesting debate on modern jets has come out of it.
The truth is that until the majority of F.3s and GR.9s in the MoD storage and instruction system are finally released it is hard to tell how many more will find their way into preservation.

I only asked if any F3s and Harriers were being preserved. 🙁
mmitch.

The implication was that Britain’s aerospace industry collapsed because of political manoeuvres (British and American). Point is (as has been explained) it didn’t. It collapsed because it was artificially over-sized in the first place and the industry thought it could survive intact regardless of the country’s needs or resources.

Collapse is only a matter of opinion, see AKs, my, and various other posts.
Our aerospace industry is still bouyant (as any other nation) but in a different way from the days of old, there is this perception that because whole aircraft no longer pour off the line that we are somehow behind in this sector.

Interesting question Baloffski, be nice to think that Newark, Doncaster, Gatwick, and Elvington would all have some interest in a disposal list like that, but the reality is that a lot of modern type arirframes seem to be left outside.
T/O mention of Dominies, what has happened to them?
It seems like the MoD try and ask too much for some airframes, while seem very helpful to museums in others (ie Nimrods).

(Politicians) Do we know that? Apparently not as there is a view expressed that the political part of this was purely for fine, rational motives. That is a niave view as has been discussed. Personally while I believe that the rationalisation of the industry was necessary, the manner in which it was done bore the hallmarks of other agendas. Certainly there is by no means agreement on the role of Macnamara (a distant relative!) to take just one topic. As ever this whole story was not a black and white tale, there were many strands and interests being played out.

It always amazes me that we vest the management of the country its economy and people, into the hands of people that by and large have never run anything more than a few legal cases or a law chamber. The political class are generally a blight that the country succeeds in spite of – IMHO.

Re: ministers and reasons for what they do. Indeed, though generally there are usually many reasons, many of which may be mutually incompatible. Not all those decisions are based on shining logic, competance or altruism. Beware thinking politians are completely above the murky or self interested; few are from my experience.

As for no defence ministers being twits in living memory; I beg to differ – Nott & buffhoon for starters! My experience of politicians is very much of the Yes Minister view.

Absolutely agree Webpilot,as I posted previously – ministers generally speaking are a bunch of self serving amateurs…our country (sort of ) survives in spite of the ludicrous efforts of many governments of both parties :rolleyes:

rgds baz

Bazv – do words like “pot” and “kettle” mean anything to you? 😉

Dunno about pot and kettle but I am old enough to remember Sandys 😉
I have never mentioned conspiracy theories,my thoughts are more along the lines of incompetence and public schoolboys eaten for breakfast by smart streetwise businessmen.
Also one only has to look at petty backstabbing and jealousies in normal life to realise that of course it can happen higher up the food chain,anybody who completely disregards industrial espionage/political pressure/political blackmail may be a little naive !!
have never had a problem vis a vis C130 – quite simply we did not have anything near as good.
As for combat a/c – yes we should (and could) have built many more !!

rgds baz

Bazv – do words like “pot” and “kettle” mean anything to you? 😉

I seem to remember comments from the odd historian that would disagree with the statement that “no deals were done to obtain Polaris”. That said I have not studied the matter in any detail, so I retain an open mind on the topic. Were the C130 and F111 the right choice? Somebody in the government of the day must have thought so. As to the RAF’s views on the matter, assuming the operational requirement was for a tactical transport, then the case for the C130 is hard to deny. Was the F111 the right choice? Ultimately somebody must have thought not, since for whatever reason the government cancelled it.

It has become almost traditional to dress-up the story as a tale of dark American conspiracy which destroyed Britain’s aerospace industry. It’s complete nonsense of course.

I suspect that the above comment was made as the result of some of my previous comments. In no way do I think that the Americans plotted to undermine the British Aviation industry or British industry in general. Many of the problems that afflicted industry were the responsibility of the industries themselves to put right.

However I will say it again, Britain’s economic situation at the end of WW2 was dire, the country was broke, in hock to the USA and perhaps most importantly the Empire was about to go! At the same time we had just won a world war and still considered ourselves to be a world power. Could we have done things differently?

EG

A very easy answer but a flawed one. Our Defence Chiefs all acknowledge that Healey was an excellent Defence Minister and a solid supporter of the RAF. He has no reason to tell fibs and – fifty years on – there’s obviously nothing to fib about. But of course one can always choose to believe twaddle in a magazine instead…;)

I think also that perhaps it should be remembered that Sandys was an ex army officer (he was in Anti – Aircraft ;))and therefore knew absolutely nothing about aircraft anyway – there is the basic problem with most ministers – they are actually amateurs and unless they have excellent and honest advisors then one can see why this country is such a mess.
I remmber him all right but I suppose I had better not say too much on here 😀
There were indeed some dark dealings going on post war and quite often our aircraft industry was one of the pawns !!