Next years Warbird operators

Most Warbirds will have a 3rd party cover lets say of £1 million, When flying at an Airshow organisers will be looking for cover for £10/30 million at some military shows, this is where the high premium cost comes in, after all, If you pile into a C130 or a couple of Tormado’s think of that cost!

Cheers…………..

It is true there is no obligation to have insurance on a private aircraft. But, if you are lucky enough to own one of these aircraft (£1.25m etc etc) then by default you must be very wealthy, after all its a “toy”. These people would make a fantastic “target” for a money hungry legal type in the event of something terrible happening. So I think its a bit of a Catch 22. If you can afford the aircraft then you are weathly enough to need to insure against someone taking you to the cleaners.

A P51 was sold by Aero Retro in France to its new home in North Weald – reason was cost of insurance.

The French collection (Bearcat and P51) you speak of is up for sale here:

http://www.courtesyaircraft.com/

I understand that an operator in France has put his collection up for sale due to insurance costs

Sad when it comes to this

Bump……..

Janie, your PM box is full!

Happy new year

Re: Re: Re: Re: Next years Warbird operators

Originally posted by Mike J
Firstly, I would be very surprised if it were true that third-party liability insurance is not mandatory in the UK

The only time I have ever heard of Insurance checks on aircraft was when we were due to fly at Air displays, we had to supply a copy of our 3rd party liability insurance cover prior to the booking. There is currently no check on private aircraft that I know of for proof of insurance cover while flying in the normal way. Some operators run without hull insurance which reduces premiums somewhat but when you look at the replacement cost of say a Spitfire at £1.25 Million then look at the 3rd party claims for a crash into the crowd at an airshow which could run to Millions of £££’s then you see that the insurance companies have a difficult task working out what their risk is going to be.
Looking back over the last few years there are more display aircraft coming on line with more pilots flying them, as we have seen some pilots can have relatively low hours on type or may not be as current as they should be, or have fuel upload constraints put on them by an owner/operator, all these items can have a bearing on risk, the more incidents we have with these aircraft the larger the risk database becomes & the higher the insurance premium becomes, I know for some of you the idea of a pilot screwing up is one you can’t believe but for once, face the facts, over the last 5 years there have been very few Aircraft accidents put down to mechanical defects & it is very difficult to evaluate the human factor for risk assessment. Unfortunately, these human facts only come to light after an accident, there seems to be little official policing of these points with it being left very much for people ‘to do the right thing’ in an almost ‘Gentleman’s’ agreement manner.

For the PPL’s out there, here is a question, How many times have you been asked after landing to produce your C of A, PPL, Radio licence or certificate of insurance?
I would be interested to know how many!

Re: Re: Next years Warbird operators

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Janie
warbirdUK: Please would you be good enough to clarify what this means exactly. From what I read above, your definition of “cease operation” is “no longer display them at public airshows”.

Does the definition also include simply owning and flying them for personal fun?
A, not as far as I know
Does it include practicing for Display Authorisations?
A, not as far as I know There are plenty of warbird owners who just like to enjoy their aircraft themselves and do not depend upon public displays. Would you know if their activities would be affected as severely by insurance increases?
A,It is not, as far as I know, a requirement to have insurance in force on private aircraft

If this is display-related then all the other types of aircraft seen at shows will be affected too surely? [/QUOTE
Yes, I would think that is so

Re: Next years Warbird operators

Originally posted by warbirdUK
cease operation of their Warbirds!

warbirdUK: Please would you be good enough to clarify what this means exactly. From what I read above, your definition of “cease operation” is “no longer display them at public airshows”.

Does the definition also include simply owning and flying them for personal fun?
Does it include practicing for Display Authorisations?

There are plenty of warbird owners who just like to enjoy their aircraft themselves and do not depend upon public displays. Would you know if their activities would be affected as severely by insurance increases?

If this is display-related then all the other types of aircraft seen at shows will be affected too surely?

Maybe with the number of large shows gradually decreasing – and the high insurance costs demanded by RIAT for example – There will be an increase in the smaller fly in type of events??

Would a large number of smaller events encourage the operators to visit more events, thus spreading the cost of the annual insurance bill?

Don’t know just thinking aloud!

Richb

£3m won’t go anywhere in a claim..

I believe it will always rest, to a greater or lesser extent, with the “generosity” of the owners as to if we see them appear or not. I do not know of one person out there who does this solely for profit (correct me if I’m wrong). As I see it, its never a case or who makes the most from owning these aircraft rather a case of who’s loss is the smallest. But I guess you have to draw the line somewhere and say it just isn’t worth it/I can no longer afford it. If this story is true then lets be sure that not for one minute will we vent any anger at either organisation.

From what I believe aviation insurance is being hit because of the general rise in the levels of settlements after major accidents.
Cover for £3 million for third party risks isn’t considered now to be very high if a tragic event happensand there are multiple claimants.

“Merry Christmas & a Happy new year to you all”

Umm, yeah.

Originally posted by airshowsorguk

The main trouble is that airshow fees have been stationary if not falling while the insurance increase has continued. Airshow orgainsers only have a certain limit to the budget for aircraft at the show. The have to cover everything else on the ground too which has meant that money avialible for the aircraft participation has fallen.

So, does that not support what I have posted?
If the insurance premium for the aircraft rises then the fee for the aircraft to attend a show will increase therefore pricing the aircraft out of the market.
Who then makes up the difference?
May I also add that the level of 3rd party risk insurance is what the Airshow organisers demand of aircraft flying in the display, as I understand it, If you were to fly into the airfield on the Friday before the weekend, go static Sat & Sun then fly out on the Monday 3rd party risk insurance is not a requirement.

I believe Shuttleworth did not fly at RIAT due to the cost of the insurance

Hi Ant,
It’s not rocket science to look back at the last few years & to see the losses that the insurance companies have had to pay out on, There has been a steady increase in the number of air shows over the years with that has come an increase in the number of pilots & aircraft available to show organisers, with this has also come an increase in risk to the insurance companies, thank God there has not been a major incident involving the paying public but by the law of averages this risk is increasing.
An additional change seems to be that in the past operators have been able to buy block hours insurance, so, if they wanted to fly say 50 hours per year they paid for a 50 hour block of insurance, now, as I understand it, they will have to pay an annual premium just as we do for our cars! I understand that it could be possible for a Warbird that is not flown that often to be costing £5,000 per hour just for the insurance! so to fly to say Duxford for a show, display & return to base could cost in excess of £10,000. How many Airshows can afford those sorts of fees?
I’m not sure, but I’m fairly sure that operators will not be able to buy the aviation equivalent to a Motor traders policy which covers any car the trader is driving so, looking at an operator like the Fighter Collection who operate quite a few aircraft of differing performances they will, I expect, have to insure each airframe on it’s own leading to a colossal insurance premium. Mr Grey, as nice a chap as he is, Is not going to work every hour he can just so he can display his fleet of Warbirds to us without them at least returning their running costs & neither is any other Warbird operator. So. The bottom line is look out for a reduction in Warbirds displaying in the UK this coming season.

Hmm, don’t get the thing about a gap at RIAT. The only real gaps were caused by the Americans fouling up the timings with the B-2. The 100 Years of Flight exhibition certainly had no gaps with aircraft from all of the major operators.

From what you’re saying, it would be shows like the Old Warden, Duxford events and Flying Legends in particular which would all suddenly dissappear. If it was such a problem, it wouldn’t be rumour, it would be in the aviation press. Aeroplane have been running articules on the future viability of the warbird scene in the years to come, but it certainly wasn’t the absolutely destruction of an industry that you are predicting. Many of the operating companies don’t insure the actual airframe hull covering the cost themselves, but they do insure third parties.

The main trouble is that airshow fees have been stationary if not falling while the insurance increase has continued. Airshow orgainsers only have a certain limit to the budget for aircraft at the show. The have to cover everything else on the ground too which has meant that money avialible for the aircraft participation has fallen.

Hi Warbird,
What is the reason for the sudden huge rise in insurance?Is it purely the Vintage aviation movement which is being subjected to it or is it across the board?I can understand insurance going up a bit considering the accidents there have been in the last couple of years,but this is just daft!I can’t really see how 9/11 should have too much impact on Warbirds,so what the hell is going on?