Nicolas Sarkozy Elected

Funny I was wondering how anybody could so grossly misunderstand it that they would think it anything other than anti-american.:mad:

You obviously missed the sixth post in the thread.

No, lawrence, you seem to be only one who knows
But why dont you be kind an enlighten us all;)

you see, I would personally hate to be unwarely anti-american next time I suddenly compare the political terms of US and Europe:D 😀

No, I read it. What I was wondering was how anyone could so grossly misunderstand it that they would think it anti-American.

Funny I was wondering how anybody could so grossly misunderstand it that they would think it anything other than anti-american.:mad:

…Frank, you could be writing about large tracts of English cities, especially London: substitute “West Indian” for “North African” in terms of the mode of speech affected by huge numbers of young black males, …

Pseudo-Jamaican, I think, of the Kingston slum variety. I’ve heard assorted old West Indians from various islands wax apoplectic at the (to them) bizarre accent of their British-born grandchildren. In British terms, it’s a bit like the children of expatriate Scots, Welsh, Geordies etc all speaking mockney – and bad mockney, at that.

you obviously did not bother to read the second post in this thread then.:mad:

No, I read it. What I was wondering was how anyone could so grossly misunderstand it that they would think it anti-American.

Stupid thing is that the handouts these farmers thrive on (you probably know that French countryside roads make for the best car-driving you can imagine) aren’t coming from Paris, but from Brussels.

True of course, though this is because the French government has decades of experience in working the system: if an EU directive suits France implement it, if not – ignore it. Yes, French roads make for great driving; while cruising relaxedly along them, one can gaze at farmers in blue overalls milking a solitary cow, a photogenic spotted one perhaps – a sight otherwise impossible anywhere west of (say) Vienna because it makes economic nonsense! I don’t know if France is still the biggest net beneficiary of the CAP but it always used to be, thereby maintaining its picturesque but hugely subsidised agricultural system at fellow Europeans’ expense…

As for getting the banlieus back on track: it’s probably way too socialist for Sarko, but using the unemployed in those areas as a workforce to get those areas back on track would be a good thing…….. a sort of Arbeitseinsatz (“no chomage pay if you don’t work at least a bit in your area”) should make them grasp concepts like ‘responsibility’ and possibly even ‘labour ethos’…

Sadly, I think you are too optimistic! And I can imagine the shuffling of feet, embarrassed failure to meet others’ eyes, etc, if the word “Arbeitseinsatz” were employed in public discussion of the issue… A bit close to the bone. I think Frank van W (?) has it exactly right:

many teenagers who drop out of school, dress like gangsters, and can’t even spek properly (note that I’m not referring here to cutural and national origins, but to the fact that, to give themselves a “style”, their language is riddeled with obscenities, slang, and they take a fake North African accent).
If you were the employer of a small company (I’m not referring to a multinational company that is paying minimum wages for unqualified workers), would you hire such people, knowing they’ll have contacts with your customers, and that the survival of your small company relies on them ? I wouldn’t. So they are left with those minimum wage jobs, if any.
Now, if they learnt something, they could apply for better jobs. But they have to be willing. Some do.

Frank, you could be writing about large tracts of English cities, especially London: substitute “West Indian” for “North African” in terms of the mode of speech affected by huge numbers of young black males, who inhabit exactly the same disaffected social niche as the kids of the bainlieus. There is no conspiracy, racist or otherwise, to deprive them of education and employment: they disqualify themselves wilfully, by adopting anti-social values. I hear them on the radio or TV and can hardly understand what they say. When in Rome, do as the Romans, and learn to speak their language – in advance of your arrival…
Regards, hps

I know what You mean, And I know that its really hard to rise from the status they have. What Arthur suggested sounds good, but in the end its all about the opportunities, and to burden of creating those opportunities, expecially to the ones that seems to be allready beoynd them, lies in the shoulders of the ones providing the jobs.
I dont know exactly how it is in french, but I doupt that the emploeers have any more “social conscience” than in here. Actions that needs to be done arent the ones making most profit in fastes ammount of time imposible, and If rigth winger like Sarkozy can make the “money” to create the socio-economical structure Arthur mentioned, Hell I will become rigth-winger myself:D 😀

well If what i say is utopic, So be it. Its still better than rasing hands up and say, hey slavery is all that they deserve. Or seek better jobs. yeah like the dark skinned uneducated arab is just something that all the emploeers with good jobs to offer wants to get their hands on…

At least I have some hope for them sorry *******s that has to face that reality. Minimium wage would be sufficent if it would be only that, living in deprivation and poverty despite working your ass off in worst possiple jobs. And if that job would stay at least relatively stable it migth work, but you and I know it isent the case.
Those jobs disappear as soon as they merge and that short livenes of european work markets have become a new looming thread to peoples well-being. Other than the employeers have thougth since the beging of industralisation, a life of a paycheck-slave isent something that people seek, it is the crude reality that they have to settle and defianetly it isent something that people escaping from Africa would seek…

You got me wrong, I’m all for them to be employed, what I’m criticizing here is the attitude of some teens there, who drag it all down. Dropping out of school, tagging the walls and burning cars won’t help them improve their communities, nor help them get a job. Remove them MTV, MCM (2 music tv channels for thows who wouldn’t know), make sure they study and integrate into society.

Minimum wage jobs aren’t the most secure because employerw will always go where costs are less. You need to add a value to the workforce if you want them to get better jobs.

And Arthur’s suggestion also sounds good. It will take many steps, but it isn’t impossible (I hope!).

I know you guys contribute, i was just joking (well, duh 😉 ). Are you trying to talk me out of my current attempt at getting a job in your country, BTW? (Don’t worry, it won’t be the French-speaking part).

Well, it all depends if you work overtime. They like to tax you on it 😀

Trouble is, much of France is wedded firmly to the paternalistic handouts of the all-powerful State – when e.g. the farmers take to the streets as they often do so entertainingly (dumping manure on the Champs Elysee, sacking local agriculture ministry buildings etc, great stuff!) they’re not standing up for rugged individualism at all, but nearly always just demanding more feather-bedding…

Stupid thing is that the handouts these farmers thrive on (you probably know that French countryside roads make for the best car-driving you can imagine) aren’t coming from Paris, but from Brussels. If there’s one thing i hope Sarko will pull of, it’s getting this little factoid into the stubborn heads of the Non-crowd.

By straight talking? With so many mealymouthed hypocrites in power, feeble creeps who are happy to diminish all our freedoms but who shrink from firm action against clearly wicked types, I find Sarko refreshing.

After an incompetent, mildly corrupt and ever-so-charming Chirac, anyone is refreshing! And in this respect i have a lot more hope for Sarko than i would have had for Royale or Bayrou. I’m not sure if he knows when to shut up though. Possibly his ‘scum’ remark on the banlieus give him a lot of credit with the Le Pen-crowd (which he thankfully siderailed these elections), but now it’s time to get things done. I know i’ll be keeping track of this.

As for getting the banlieus back on track: it’s probably way too socialist for Sarko, but using the unemployed in those areas as a workforce to get those areas back on track would be a good thing. Those areas need a lot of work, both in getting some sort of viable socio-economical structure and in properly santising the housing. Getting the youths into such activities, even as a sort of Arbeitseinsatz (“no chomage pay if you don’t work at least a bit in your area”) should make them grasp concepts like ‘responsibility’ and possibly even ‘labour ethos’. Plenty of work to do in those suburbs, after all after they were built (sometimes even prestigiously) they have become totally neglected by the estate agencies. The housing prices are excessive in those areas, btw.

well If what i say is utopic, So be it. Its still better than rasing hands up and say, hey slavery is all that they deserve. Or seek better jobs. yeah like the dark skinned uneducated arab is just something that all the emploeers with good jobs to offer wants to get their hands on…

At least I have some hope for them sorry *******s that has to face that reality. Minimium wage would be sufficent if it would be only that, living in deprivation and poverty despite working your ass off in worst possiple jobs. And if that job would stay at least relatively stable it migth work, but you and I know it isent the case.
Those jobs disappear as soon as they merge and that short livenes of european work markets have become a new looming thread to peoples well-being. Other than the employeers have thougth since the beging of industralisation, a life of a paycheck-slave isent something that people seek, it is the crude reality that they have to settle and defianetly it isent something that people escaping from Africa would seek…

Arthur: Let Flanders pay for it? Well, after I saw that I left about 60% of my wages in tax last month, I’m sure we contribute too 😎

I know you guys contribute, i was just joking (well, duh 😉 ). Are you trying to talk me out of my current attempt at getting a job in your country, BTW? (Don’t worry, it won’t be the French-speaking part).

Gollevainen,

What you’re saying here is unfortunately utopic.

If you look at the situation in those social housings, you’ll see many teenagers who drop out of school, dress like gangsters, and can’t even spek properly (note that I’m not referring here to cutural and national origins, but to the fact that, to give themselves a “style”, their language is riddeled with obscenities, slang, and they take a fake North African accent).
If you were the employer of a small company (I’m not referring to a multinational company that is paying minimum wages for unqualified workers), would you hire such people, knowing they’ll have contacts with your customers, and that the survival of your small company relies on them ? I wouldn’t. So they are left with those minimum wage jobs, if any.

Now, if they learnt something, they could apply for better jobs. But they have to be willing. Some do.

Arthur: Let Flanders pay for it? Well, after I saw that I left about 60% of my wages in tax last month, I’m sure we contribute too 😎

because despite S’s conservative views on social policy he is unlikely to alter France’s economic stance very much toward US-style free market economics. Though achieving the latter might be the best way to get those youths into jobs..

well we should really make seperation between jobs and jobs that can actually give these youths a change to survive in the modern world. But Unfortuanetly the european rigth wingers, to wich I belive Sarkozy presents, think that best way to deal with “those” youths is to put them to enslaving minium wage job in short cut jobs that luckyly can last over the next half-year period of company involved. Or let them become some faceless cheap-labor pool for the corporation world.
All the tools that rigth-wing really has to boast their “we will bring end to unemployment” -slogan is to make European own workers as appealing as the ones they currently seeking in China and Korea.

What we poor of the europe really need is secure and reasonable payment in job that has at least some sort of security of keeping it above next negative trade cylce.

Last thing that we need is make us vunerable to the short-singheness and grab-that-cash-as-fast-as-you-can mentality that is reality in totally free capitalist market economy

(Sarkozy) currently seems to be looking for ministers from both the left and right of France’s political spectrum, which is definately a plus IMHO.

Agreed – let’s hope he genuinely desires to pull France together, though it’s difficult to believe that has ever been achieved since Napoleon, and even he had a spot of bother with malcontents such as the many Royalists who actively aided Britain…

What the Sarkozistii definately need to work on is reforming France’s socio-economical structure. It’s still way too much a nationalistic Paris-centered economy..

Totally dirigiste, though mayors of major cities have considerable power it seems – I have some knowledge of Montpellier, whose mayor a few years ago was described to me by a local friend as “acting like Mussolini” (shades of K.Livingstone..). Trouble is, much of France is wedded firmly to the paternalistic handouts of the all-powerful State – when e.g. the farmers take to the streets as they often do so entertainingly (dumping manure on the Champs Elysee, sacking local agriculture ministry buildings etc, great stuff!) they’re not standing up for rugged individualism at all, but nearly always just demanding more feather-bedding…

..both Sarko and Bush are totally oblivious to concepts like ‘diplomacy’, ‘subtlety’ and ‘think-before-you-speak’. But then again, France has always been the USA of Europe.

Really? I’ve never heard that suggested before – seems improbable. And it’s unfair to say Bush (maybe Sarko too) is oblivious to diplomacy: this is the accusation always levelled by Europeans at America, in the hypocritical pretence that sophisticated, well mannered (and inexpensive..) talk-talk is always possible. It isn’t, of course, because dangerous extremists persist in arising and can only be dealt with by a big stick, usually an American one. I can sympathise with US critics who argue that America should stop looking after European security, and see how the Europeans like having to look after themselves.

As for bringing peace and quiet to the Banlieus: that’s going to be quite a challenge. Sarko’s definately has a wonderful talent to p!ss people off..

By straight talking? With so many mealymouthed hypocrites in power, feeble creeps who are happy to diminish all our freedoms but who shrink from firm action against clearly wicked types, I find Sarko refreshing.

.. with Sarko being a right-winger… Get the rebellious youth out of the slums, and into a job.

This connects to Sealordlawrence’s comment about Grey Area’s supposed anti-US comment – sorry, but i too was mystified by this accusation! AFAICS it is bang-on to say Sarko, despite the continual and very irritating description of him by the Euro media as a “right winger”, would be viewed in the USA as what they call a “liberal” of sorts; generally socialist, because despite S’s conservative views on social policy he is unlikely to alter France’s economic stance very much toward US-style free market economics. Though achieving the latter might be the best way to get those youths into jobs..
hps

GA made a note how the political thermilogy in USA and europe are different…for example the word “Liberal” in political sense are quite opposite between the atlantic. In here Cheyney, Rumsfeld and co. eg. the “hawks” are often described as “neo-liberals” rather than “neo-conservative”…

…What it has to do with anti-americaism…I think its beyond us, only lawrence knows it but….(ok I stop here;) )

Yeah, I’ve been wondering too.

you obviously did not bother to read the second post in this thread then.:mad:

Exactly what was GA’s anti-american sentiment?

Yeah, I’ve been wondering too.

Consider it done. Your actions is this thread, for someone who is supposedly a moderator have been unacceptable, firstly the attempted to hi-jack the thread by introducing anti-american sentiment then when challenged you took an aggresive and sarcastic tone with other posters. This is certainly not a way to inspire confidence in this website.:mad:

Exactly what was GA’s anti-american sentiment? If you’re too sensitive for this forum, just admit it. I’m sure the GenDis moderators would like to give you some counseling :rolleyes:

Right now the problem with the socialist governments is that: They tax corporations in an excessive way. That means that the labor here costs too much. So, they’ll delocalize –> job losses –> more people relying on social security, and expecting the same advantages, when the incoming money to pay them is less. That can’t work.

Unless you’ve got Flanders to pay for you :diablo:

Re the on-topic bit:
I think it’s way too early to really say anything meaningful of the Sarkozista junta taking power in France. He currently seems to be looking for ministers from both the left and right of France’s political spectrum, which is definately a plus IMHO. I’m just hoping he is doing it not just to look non-partisan, but at least as much to get the right people pulling the right strings.

What the Sarkozistii definately need to work on is reforming France’s socio-economical structure. It’s still way too much a nationalistic Paris-centered economy they’ve got, and i do believe Sarko at least has the vision and the balls to start thinking in a more Euro-centered way (as in “France for Europe”, not “Europe for France”). Definately a lot ballsier than I would have guessed Queen Segolène to have become. Also, i guess Sarko will be able to close the gap between France (and, associatedly, Europe) and the US. If only because both Sarko and Bush are totally oblivious to concepts like ‘diplomacy’, ‘subtlety’ and ‘think-before-you-speak’. But then again, France has always been the USA of Europe.

As for bringing peace and quiet to the Banlieus: that’s going to be quite a challenge. Sarko’s definately has a wonderful talent to p!ss people off, and as such has started off on the wrong foot. On the other hand, with Sarko being a right-winger, he might be able to convince the more xenophobic right-wingers in France to be more accepting towards the immigrants in the suburbs and finally get a process of integration going. That is going to be the only long-term solution. Get the rebellious youth out of the slums, and into a job.