No 75 OTU North Africa

Hi Steve,

My grandfather also known as Nick Bertram was there in late 44/early 45.

75 OTU (Operational Training Unit) 23/10/1944 – 05/01/1945RAF Station, Gianaclis

Aircraft time according to his service records : Baltimore 76 hrs

I was just interested in finding out anything really, there is just not to much info out there on this unit.

I have attached some of his photos from his time in the 75 OTU.

Nick was a pilot and the other men in the photo in front of the Baltimore were his crew (From left to right – Keith Jessup (Navigator), Jack Rowan (Wireless Operator/Air Gunner), Jack Seaton (Air Gunner), Nick Bertram (Pilot))

Regards

Nick

Hello Nick,

A good friend of mine did his Baltimore training at 75 OTU in 1944. Is there anything in particular you would like to know?

Steve

Pat Obrien – 75 OTU

Hi All,

My name is Nick Bertram and my grandfather was in the 75 Operational Training Unit.

I’m looking for information on this unit, there is very little info out there.

I have many photos of the camp at Gianaclis and Baltimores airplanes, in my grandfathers belonings.

I see all the posts by Pobrien31 on the web but im unable to get through to view the website

http://www.pobrien.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Does anyone know how to contact Pat or locate his website??

Kind Regards

Nick Bertram

No 101 as it stands now (the personnel in the truck), it looks like some of them are Italian POWs.

My brain said Anson, my fingers typed Oxford!! 😮

Definitely an Anson Mk. 1

Or even an Anson 1 ?????

The aircraft is an Airspeed Oxford

Afternoon All,

I can’t believe it’s been 5 years since I originally posted this asking for info.

And here I am asking the same again of you all.

My Mother-in-Law was having a tidy up the other day when she came across a photo and some letters.

http://www.pobrien.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/RAF.jpg

The ‘chap’ in question is in the front row, second from the left. He was my Mother-in-Law’s Mom’s cousin and his name was Guy Brokensha….I’ve just done a quick google search and have come across the following…..

“Lieutenant Guy Brokensha, Royal Navy (Fleet Air Arm), a Durban High School old boy, who saw service on board the Royal Navy aircraft-carriers Ark Royal and Formidable during the war, taking part in air operations during the Norwegian Campaign (1940), and was lost overboard later in the war while serving aboard the Formidable” courtesy of http://peek-01.livejournal.com/73838.html

I was just going to ask you kind folk about the aircraft in the picture and if anyone can shed any light…..but there appears a wealth of info in the letters I am reading through…it makes absolute compelling reading!!

The letters have various dates…..one begins (extracts from Guy’s letter July 18th, 1940 – H.M.S. Ark Royal, received Sept. 20, 1940)

In it he mentions how hard it has been to receive post let alone send any. He mentions a Cdr. Casson being his new C.O. Several mentions of ‘blitz’ “including the ‘bopping’ of the Scarnhorst at Trondheim”. He writes about a particular flight just after midnight on the morning of June 13th and how on earth he ever made it back. To be honest there is so much to mention that I think it would be better to scan the docs and upload them instead.

However, the last page of this particular letter is a cutting from a copy of a letter from Lt. Comdr. Stanford who was in the ‘Hermes’ when Guy joined the Navy – April 1938, and it goes…..

“Dear Brokensha, My heartiest congratulations on your D.S.C, and from what I hear I know you more than deserve it. It is grand to sit in the head office and see you chaps all doing your stuff so well; anyhow that is an excellent compensation for not being able to join in much. Yours sincerely A.E. Stanford”

If anyone knows how I can found out what he got the D.S.C for it would be really appreciated.

Right, I’m off to scan the letters….

Regards,

Patrick.

Patrick

All my fault – I’d forgotten to update my e-mail address in the Control Panel. All fixed now.

NiallC

Dear Patrick,

Some answers re the AM Form 78 for Z4693.

1. Illegible, but would normally record the aircraft being taken on charge at a Maintenance Unit
2. Looks like “Abbotsinch” – an RAF airfield in Scotland used by both RAF and Fleet Air Arm as a storage and maintenance depot
3. 47 Maintenance Unit at Sealand. This was also the home of the Aircraft Packing Depot which dismantled and crated aircraft for overseas shipment.
4. The aircraft is en route to Middle East. Presumably by ship, but possibly flown via the Takoradi route. The card doesn’t really give a clue either way.
5. Aircraft is on strenght of RAF Middle East 18/9/42
6. Allotted to Far East, but allotment later cancelled and aircraft taken back onto the books of RAF Middle East. (Note: in the months immediately after Pearl Harbour a lot of shuffling of aircraft and units from Middle East to Far East was planned since it was felt to be quicker to ship from ME to India than from home)
7. Struck off charge, but this too later cancelled (possibly this entry is a mistake since it is dated later than 8
8. On strength RAF Iraq Command
9. Still in Middle East 31/1/43. This may be one of the periodic census of aircraft carried out.
10.Struck off charge in 1945, but I’d wager it had gone long before then.

As I mentioned in one of my posts on the Key Forum, these cards for aircraft that went overseas have much less detail on them than those for aircraft remaining at home. Apparently there was a parallel set of cards held locally in overseas commands, but these have not survived.

I shall be going to the National Archives next week sometime and, if time permits, I’ll go through the 260 Sqn Ops Record Book to see if the incident depicted in the photo is mentioned. That might give us a date, cause and possibly the name of the pilot involved. The aircraft would almost certainly have served with other Squadrons during its time in the Middle East. Z4692 and Z4694 for example, served with 73 Squadron, and this one may have too.

Hope this helps

Best regards

NiallC
———————————————–

Niall,

I did try replying with your e-mail address but I had a ‘mail delivery system’ error.

I just wanted to say many many thanks for your input and generosity.

Regards,

Pat.

Morning All,

As an aside to the project that I am currently workingon , can anyone help me with the attached photo.

The serial number looks like Z4893 or could it be Z4693?

How would I go about trying to find information about this particular plane?

I’m trying to put some stories to most if not all of the photos and this would be as good a starting point as any.

Any and all help would be gratefully appreciated.

Regards,

Patrick.

Well folks it took a while but here it is!!! It arrived from the RAF Museum London this morning.

If anyone can make out the scrawl then please let me know.

And thanks again to everyone for your wealth of knowledge on this forum.

Regards,

Pat.

Niall,

Many many thanks for your input and advice. I am a mere amateur compared to you guys only having started any real research in the summer of last year. But through information gleamed from this site and through messages elsewhere on the internet I would like to think that I have at least gone some way in contributing to the documenting of history as it happened some 60 years ago.

Kind Regards,

Pat.

Originally posted by Patrick:
how on earth did you come by this detail of information?

No short answer to that one I’m afraid Patrick. it’s a bit like asking how or when someone learned to cook. 🙂

For me,and I suspect most others on the forum, it comes from simply having an interest in a subject for many years. In my case, having just done mental arithmetic, about 30 years. After a while you begin to find areas that interest you more than others and so tend to learn (or absorb) more about them then others, you start buying books, learning not to trust most of them and (as many here have) then going on to do some primary research of your own. After a while there just becomes a pile of stuff that you just “know”. Or at least think you do.

Some pointers though:

Identifying variants of aircraft: Different variants of most aircraft show external variations that allow them to be identified in photos. There are people on this board who, I’ve no doubt could take an educated guess even as to which factory made a particular Spitfire just by the paint spraying technique and the typography of the serial number. Similarly with the Bf109, for example, there are clear differences in the design of the propeller spinner, engine cowling, windscreen and canopy that allow one to tell a 109E from a F or G. And lots of other tiny differences often visible in photos, such as changed access point locations, or even, clearly visible in one of your pictures, two small oval blisters on the port fuselage side to which, on tropical variants, a parasol type sunshade could be clipped. My wife has a name for this kind of “knowledge”.

Identifying Units: The RAF and the Luftwaffe (for all aircraft except fighters in the latter case) both used simple coding systems to identify units. In the RAF case a two letter code on on side of the fuselage roundel identifies the squadron, and an individual letter on the other side of the roundel identifies the aircraft within the squadron. (before someone points it out, there are MANY exceptions, including, unfortunately from your point of view, OTUs) So, for example, the rather distressed Hurricane being trailered away for repair has a squadron code where the first letter is M, the second not being visible. There was only one Hurricane squadron in the Middle East theatre using a code letter beginning with M, 260 Squadron, so it would be reasonable to identify the aircraft as one of theirs. There have been a few books on this subject over the years, but one that should still be readily available is Combat Codes, by Vic Flintham and Andrew Thomas, ISBN 1-84037-281-8.

For Luftwaffe Bombers, transport and recconaissance aircraft the 2 character code forward of the cross tells you the unit, the two characters aft of the code identify the individual aircraft and which Gruppe and Staffel it belonged to. There was a very large book by, I think, Barry Rosch (sp?)and listing all these, but there were so few Luftwaffe units operating in North Africa that you get to know them off by heart after a while.

Luftwaffe fighters are different, but there is still a system of numbers (and their colours) and the symbols such as the chevron and vertical bar visible in some of these pictures, that allow you tell something of the aircrafts origins. Many Luftwaffe fighter units painted unit badges on their aircraft (far more so than in the RAF). For example, the “ace of spades” painted on the engine cowlings of some of the Bf109s in your pictures is the unit badge of JG53.

Identifying specific aircraft: If it’s an RAF aircraft and the serial number is visible, you may be able to uncover the aircraft’s complete history. Air Britain has, over the years published a series of books providing thumbnail histories of RAF aircraft by serial number. They’re not infallible, but very useful. Some are now out of print. To acquire the whole set would be expensive, but many members of this forum will have them, so a posting here will probably get you want to know. Alternatively you can visit the Dept of Research and Information Service at RAF Museum Hendon where they hold microfilm copies of the (so-called) Aircraft Movement Cards. The Air Britain Series was largely (but not wholly) based on these. The cards are heavily laden with abbreviations that may initially confuse, but, again, there are many here who can help. Unfortunately they are usually next to useless for aircraft that went overseas, simply recording the date of allotment to an overseas command and then noting sometime later (usually at the point of a periodic census) that the aircraft has been Struck off Charge. The parallel, local records for what happened to the aircraft after it arrived in, say the Middle East, have not survived. If you want more detail your only real recourse is to look at the unit Operational Records Books at the National Archives.

With regard to Bomber OTUs, I’m sure there are others here with more knowledge than I (since it’s not really my area), but, as a suggestion, Air Britain published a book Royal Air Force Flying Training and Support Units by Ray Sturtivant and others in 1997. This gives a brief potted history of all of the OTUs (and a huge variety of other non-frontline units) and may be a good place to start. Aircraft losses with Bomber OTUs are also covered in one of the volumes of Bill Chorleys excellent Bomber Command Losses of WW2 series.

If you want more detail, my guess is that you’ll have to go to the Operations Record Book for the OTU in question in class AIR 29 at the National Archives. Another possible source of information might be the various histories of individual UK airfields that have been published – again I suspect others here will be more familiar with these than I am.

Hope this helps

NiallC

Also,

I could with some guidance as to the best places to look for information on the Operational Trainings Units that formed part of Bomber Command during the war.

Pat.

Hi NiallC,

I continue to be astonished at the knowledge and wealth of information available on this forum.

Niall, how on earth did you come by this detail of information?

I guess I’m looking in the wrong places!!! Can you recommend any publications to get hold of, organisations or official bodies to contact to get hold of information such as you have provided.

I guess I have enough at the moment to at least put identities to most of these aircraft now – But as always, the input of this forum is indeed most welcome.

Regards,

Patrick.

My two pfennigs worth:

In the first set:

08: Bf110E of III/ZG76
48: Hurricane obviously. The only unit I can think of that operated Hurricanes in the ME with Sqn codes beginning with M was 260 Sqn (MF). I thought they re-equipped with P40s April-ish 42
86: Arco Philaenorum: Italian-built Triumphal arch on the border between Cyrenaica and Tripolitania (a few miles to the west of El Agheila). Generally referred to by British forces as Marble Arch. I think British forces got this far early Dec 42
93: Bf109 E-7 Jabo, S9+DR of III/ZG1 (seemingly photographed from every conceivable angle by every serviceman with a camera who came across it)

In the Don Adds set:
68: Ju 87D, S7+AR of St.G.3
71: Ju 87 D, S7+KS of 8/St.G.3. Forcelanded behind British lines in the first few days of Nov 42, crew POW.

74: Bf109 G-2s of Stab/JG77 in the dump at Gambut – late ’42
75: He 111. S7+EB, one of several used by Ju 87-equipped St.G.3. in N. Africa for crew ferrying, liaison and transport.
76: posed official picture of Ju 87 – one of a sequence held, from memory, by the IWM. There are other (earlier) photos of this wreck with it’s prop still on and a few other pieces present that are absent in this photo. The only conclusion one can reach is that the wreck was set on fire again for dramtic effect while the photos were taken.
77: Bf 109 F-4 trop of 9/JG53 at Quotaifiya, post El Alamein
97: Bf 110E of III/ZG26
94: Frequently published picture. Bf109F trop probably of JG53
105: P40-F/Kittyhawk Mk III of 112 Sqn

NiallC

Afternoon All,

The research is still going great guns. I have received copies of the airfield drawings when 75 OTU was stationed at Gianaclis via the RAF Museum in London. I have also received drawings for the ex airfield where I currently work at Dove Valley Park in Derby, which would have been RAF Church Broughton (details of this research are in the other thread of mine).

Anyway, as I have mentioned before, I have received many replies from people who had relatives that served and even replies from several veterans also.

My latest contact is a chap called Bruce Evans who served with the RAAF and trained on Baltimore’s. Actually he is trying to find out if his skipper, Gordon Latter-Stapley is still with us. He lived in Burns Crescent, Tonbridge, Kent. It has been well over 10 years since he was last in touch with him. He is hesitant to write to that address after so long.

The following is an extract from one of his e-mails:
I was in the RAAF but under the Empire Air Training Scheme initiated early in the war. Many of us were mixed up with ‘odd bods’ from all parts of the empire. Some Squadrons in England were almost if not entirely made up of Australians. I served with one of our most famous, 460 Squadron, (Lancaster’s) at Binbrook, Lincs for a short time after D day. I had the unforgettable experience of two trips in a Lancaster.

I was a W/O when I was discharged on Jan 2, 1946 (3 weeks before my 21st birthday). The three other members of our crew were all RAF. The navigator was a London Bobby from Hammersmith and the gunner was from Kensington. I am not sure what Stap’s (Gordon Latter-Stapley) rank was on demob. Shortly after VE Day, all Australians serving in the European theatre were ordered home and our crew was split up. I was sent to a transit camp, back at Shallufa where we languished in the desert for 5 months before space could be found for us on a troopship. I did not have any contact with the others for over 22 years when the secretary to the Agent General for Victoria, who also served in the RAAF in UK, tracked Stap down for me when I was on a visit.

My log book shows that 46 Course at 75 OTU commenced on 26/02/45 and ended on 4/5/45. The (GR) indicating a General Reconnaissance Course is crossed out and NAR for Night Armed Reconnaissance written in ink. I was not aware that it had only been established two weeks at that time.

Last year, I joined the Odd Bods (UK) Association. This organisation was setup to cater for blokes like me who were mixed up with others from all over the Commonwealth and not in distinctly Australian crews. At the dinner, I sat with the half dozen ex 460 Squadron who are still airborne.

A couple of years ago, there was a notice from an A/G who crewed Baltimore’s from the US to North Africa wanting to know if anyone had flown in any of the numbers he specified. I was able to tell him where one was at the end of the war in Europe. It seems eerie now that all those aircraft and facilities like those at Binbrook were just abandoned when the war was over. As far as I can find out, there are no Baltimore’s in existence.

So my question is this – Is he correct in thinking that there are no more Baltimore’s in existence?

He was delighted when he viewed my website and saw the 2 Baltimore pictures that you guys here have been so good in identifying for me.

I would like nothing more than to be able to tell him, well actually there are and here are a couple of pics and/or links to websites.

As ever, your help and assistance is most appreciated.

Regards,

Patrick.

Morning All,

I just want to say a big thankyou to all who have contributed so far.

Have a great Christmas.

Regards,

Pat.

An excellent thread to tax the grey cells at this time of year.
I would also go for a Lysander in 43 as there is none of the fuselage in view which there would most likeky have been if it was twin engined.
Sorry I can’t remember if anyone remarked on the Albacore in the same shot as the DH82 (Tiger Moth or Queen Bee, I’ll leave you to argue amongst yourselves on that)