Non Pilot wants to buy plane…

C-6
I do not know the LAA maintanence schedules, as I live in a different country and we might have different rules here. However, these are my observations.

Regarding the overhaul of the engine. I would have thought that as the aircraft (and engine) is on a permit to fly, you would be allowed to do the overhaul yourself under the supervision of an inspector. That is at least how it works here out in the sticks. An overhaul to serviceable limits is just about getting the book out and measuring components, looking for corrosion etc. As you are already an aircraft engineer (albeit without CAA endorsment), I think you should not find this too complicated. Hey, even I did an overhaul on a Continental A-65 a few years ago under the watchful eye of my inspector! If the UK rules are different, I appologize for the red herring 😉

Regarding the engine in the aircraft you are thinking about buying. I think you should not worry too much, the Continental is a tough little engine. It does have weaknesses, but they are GENERALLY less expensive than the known weaknesses on a Lycoming. When you inspect the aircraft (assuming you have not done so already), you have to look for oil leaks. Typical weak spot the crank shaft seal at the front of the engine and the O-rings in the valve train. Nothing expensive and (relatively) easily rectified.
The engine as you describe it has only run about one third of it´s live, the recommanded TBO for the small Continentals typically being 1800 hours. When you inspect the aircraft check if the aircraft has been flown regulary. If it has not, you can expect to have to do a top overhaul on the engine soon-ish. It might be ok for a year, or maybe longer, but on the Continental USUALLY the first item to go after a long time of inactiveness are the cylender (or rather the piston rings) giving you zero compression. If you are lucky, you might be able to salvage the rings and hone the cylenders but you should give a thought about replacing them all when the first one fails as the other ones will probably fail shortly.
You have a few possibilities to renew the cylenders. You could find old jugs and pistons that are within serviceable limits and buy a new ring kits for them.
If you feel posh, you could by a complete new cylender assembly (jug, piston rings etc.) and be set back about 1000 dollars for each jug.
If you are operating on a shoe string, take the old ones (all of them when the first one fails), and salvage what you can and by new rings for the rest.
If I was in your shoes, I would go with option one. As soon as you buy the aircraft, get the overhaul manual for the engine. Start looking for Jugs and pistons that are within serviceable limits. When it starts going pear shaped, by new rings for and exchange all at once. As a permit to fly aircraft and engine I THINK you can do all the work yourself with an inspector looking over your shoulder.

When you inspect the aircraft, find someone familiar with the type. If such a guy is not available, go for someone that knows similar aircraft types or the type of construction. Have him/her look the aircraft over to see if there is something obviously wrong. He/she might not be able to find everything that is wrong, but it would at least give you an idea of whether or not you are buying a turkey or an aeroplane.

Aircraft maintenance check sheets are available from the Light Aircraft Association Engineering website at http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/Maintenance/Aircraft_Maintenance.html

These make a good source of reference.

A full 0-200 rebuild to certificated standard will cost at least £11,000 – assuming the previous engine is damaged, corroded, or time expired.
It could be worse, something like a DH Gipsy Major is probably getting on for 3-4 times that!

The good news is that at 630 hours, the engine in your target aeroplane has a long way to go before it reaches its maximum Time Between Overhaul, which I believe is in excess of 1000 hours. At the PPL average of 50 hours a year of flying you will be looking forward to at least nine years of operation!

Clearly not all aeroplanes reach this, as it is very dependent on useage and care. However this works both ways. The Light Aircraft Association allows engines, properly inspected, to operate in excess of the certified TBO ‘on condition’.

If I were seriously considering buy this aeroplane, I would be less interested in the total hours, than checking the log books and talking with the inspector who has signed for the aeroplanes permit to fly in recent years, then making a decision on what the condition of the engine and airframe really is.

A well-maintained, regularly used aeroplane is likely to be far less trouble than a low-hours hangar-queen, that maybe only gets started a handful of times a year.

In my further research of purchasing an aeroplane, it was pointed out to me to factor in an engine rebuild, is this fair? Would YOU want to be sitting behind a relatively unknown quantity (despite what the paperwork may say)?

If so I contacted a rebuilder of the O200 based in St Neots and was quoted a huge £11K for a full rebuild…Is this typical??

Factor in that cost with the purchase price of the aircraft (around £16k), I just can’t imagine asking the guy to take £5000 for his aeroplane!:o My budget incidentally is less than the £16K asking price.

I need to know what further questions to ask of the vendor and an idea of what to offer him initially.

Kind regards,
C6

Lindys lad………………. “The maintenance schedule should come with the aircraft”
We can all dream for that to happen, sadly it does not 🙂

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=2937

I’m very surprised at that! I would have thought that even home-builds would have a fixed schedule for time expired components – although most of it would be ‘on-condition’ anyway. That said, all of the aircraft I’ve ever delt with have a C of A as opposed to a permit…. Still, thats all to change! I’ve just taken delivery of a Thorp T2-11, 3/4 built, basic airframe…….

I’ve found an LLA inspector (in my view this means licenced engineer for the type – either way, able to certify my work on the airframe). I now need a cheap Continental 0-200 and some wheels… and a bucket full of instruments… and a PPL (start next month)…..

Forgot to add, this might help

http://www.cessna150-152club.com/

Hi Tony,

This is the O200 to which I refer:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_O-200

As for airframe/engine hours and specs:-

Airframe 560 hrs total, 210 since major overhaul,

Engine 630 hrs since major overhaul, 220hrs since top overhaul.

Permit for 11 months.

Price is less than £20K, which is my idea of affordable! (I’ll still need to borrow some funds though).

C6

Ok Are you sure the Airframe only has a total of 560 hrs on it since new?? as the Engine has more!! Also how long since the engine was overhauled,
Engine wise what are the last compressions, and who was it overhauled by? It may cost a bit but I would sweet talk a Licenced Engineer who is licenced and experienced on them to give it a once over for you……. what he may save you from doing at worst is a costly error and at best spot something that could work on a price reduction and peace of mind.

Service manuals, or maintenance scheme, well to be honest LAMPS which I maintain ours to on a full C OF A is a good basis, though that needs in LAALAA Land ( EASA) to be carried out with a combination of the Aircraft one too. Parts as with the C152 are pretty reasonable, but check out insurance and parking or hangarage as these are hidden add ons that can add up.

What is the radio fit like as well, coms and transponder? ADF? also what makes, Mode S when it ever comes in, if ever at this rate will mean a pretty steep bill for a transponder, as said the LAA will be able to help you out with info on these, I am fully licenced on them but do not really have anything to do with the LAA side of things.

Lamps schedule can be downloaded here, and I might be able to help out with the manuals.

Lindys lad………………. “The maintenance schedule should come with the aircraft”
We can all dream for that to happen, sadly it does not 🙂

Lamps schedule as a guide to what we use is here, though we have to add any time or special cessna maintenance instructions onto that.

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=2937

… and it costs more than € 100,000 which is not quite my idea of “reasonably priced 😮 Neat aircraft though.

Come on! 😀

Even a decently equipped Mercedes E class costs already as much!

Continental 0200 engine

Is that a Rolls Royce O200? as parts are getting hardish to come by.

Also what are its hours like etc?? Engine and Airframe.

Hi Tony,

This is the O200 to which I refer:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_O-200

As for airframe/engine hours and specs:-

Airframe 560 hrs total, 210 since major overhaul,

Engine 630 hrs since major overhaul, 220hrs since top overhaul.

Permit for 11 months.

Price is less than £20K, which is my idea of affordable! (I’ll still need to borrow some funds though).

C6

there is a German company called Remos doing a very reasonably priced VLA/LSA called the GX

… and it costs more than € 100,000 which is not quite my idea of “reasonably priced 😮 Neat aircraft though.

Continental 0200 engine

Is that a Rolls Royce O200? as parts are getting hardish to come by.

Also what are its hours like etc?? Engine and Airframe.

Seems like you already found your dream machine. Still I’d like to throw in a comment about the hangar issue and what follows: You might be aware of it, there is a German company called Remos doing a very reasonably priced VLA/LSA called the GX, and that thing has folding wings. Fits in a trailer or garage. Currently still under a PtF, as far as I’m aware, but if you could live with the limitations …

Low and Slow,

Thank you for your useful advice! I’m realising as time goes by I’m getting no younger (36 now) and aviation has often been just looking skywards and backseat trips in all sorts. I’ll be in touch with my local strut soon (I have a day off tomorrow), so will seek further advice from them.

Good stuff, thanks

C6

Don’t let the ‘non-pilot’ bit worry you too much. All aviators were such at some point!

I went the same route as you a few years ago. Acquiring a Luton Minor single-seater, before I’d got to first solo. It and I got airworthy at around the same time…..

As the aeroplane you are considering is on a Permit to Fly, your first port of call on inspection and airworthiness should be http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/engineering.html

You will also find a lot of advice around in Lincolnshire. Chase up your local LAA strut. (Fenland, or Breckland Strut?).

Happy aviating (and tinkering!!) 😉

If it’s on a permit-to-fly then you won’t need a licensed engineer.

There’s a wodge of ‘pilot maintenance’ stuff you can do yourself. Anything else you can still do yourself but has to be signed off by an authorised person – usually a LAA approved aircraft inspector.

You can reckon on somewhere between £1,000 and £3,000 for hangarage.

Insurance could well be in the same region

Moggy

Lindy’s Lad,

Ah, I’ll need a licensed engineer? That’s good, I know a few of those, and have done some work towards that myself. I’m assuming that I’ll be able to carry out general maintenance myself, and get it signed off by a licensed eng?

Hangarage sounds a lot, maybe I ought to contact the airfield in question.

I’ll ask for a look at the log books, and hopefully will move on from there.

Thank you,

Circus 6

The maintenance schedule should come with the aircraft – look at the log books for the engine / airframe hours to find out when they will require major overhaul. You cannot certify the work yourself – you will need a licenced engineer. I’m afraid you are in the same position I was in a few years back. You may be able to self certify on a Tornado / Eurofighter / Sentry, but I’m afraid anything with a G-reg is beyond you….:(

Eshott is my nearest GA field, and hangarage is 250 quid a month for fixed wing aircraft.

Best of luck with the project! I am sure you would find a few volunteers here to keep the air under the wings until you can do it yourself!:D