North East Air Space

All the stats on Airprox available on the CAA website….try this page http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=423&pagetype=68&groupid=430 or type Airprox into the search facility.

With particular regard to NCL, the inbound routing from the south via POL is now entirely within controlled airspace, due to the establishment of airway P18 (POL-NEW), so the risk to NCL inbounds has been significantly reduced.

The problem is that many UK civil airports have no controlled airspace linking them to the airway system (MME, HUY, NWI, BRS for example). Traffic has to route through the open FIR (Class G airspace), which anyone, from microlight to B52 has a perfect right to be operating in. The best ATC can offer is a Radar Advisory Service, which although usually good, cannot offer total protection against high energy military traffic.

Airspace evolves continually….for example on May 12th EMA gains a whole new chunk of sky out to the east of Leicester which totally changes the arrival routings, but many UK airports still remain clear of controlled airspace.

Teesside (DTV) and Newcastle are largely out on their own really in the north east as most of the major airways are in the west and northwest, stretching from London through Birmingham and the Midlands, Manchester and up to Glasgow area.

Out here in the East, NCL and MME are like little islands with only radar coverage of their own zone (as far as I understand it). There is still plenty of traffic at high levels for traffic between Europe and the Atlantic.

The thing that accentuates the issue is the amount of military activity here. There are loads of RAF bases in the Vale of York which use the area for practicing, and for transiting out to the North Sea for exercises… Leeming, Linton-on-Ouse, Dishforth, Church Fenton etc.

Matt

It scares me that things like this happen – as it would anymore.

What appauls and petrifies me is the frequency of these incidents up here now. Sooner or later something has to be done about this, and preferably before its too late; we all know there is a problem now, so lets do something now.

Brings to mind a quote from the captain of a Jetstream I think it was, who had to take avoidance action when presented with the sight of an RAF Tornado coming out of the clouds at him… “We may have spilled one or two drinks down the back?” 😮

Another story reported on Century FM yesterday. Again, I can find no link to the story so I hope you’ll trust me on the source:-

A Bmi Baby flight returning from Malaga last Wednesday (4th May) was involved in a near miss with a military aircraft. The aircraft landed safely at Durham Tees Valley but was subjected to inspection on its arrival.

the problem is Military and civil ATC are two sperate entities. Military jets are literally free to do what ever they fancy…. this leads to a lot of near missed with commuter planes. Military aviation should be controlled by national ATC. then the near misses would be stopped, or at the very least reduced

Thats something of an over-simplification…

1. Almost all of the UK including “uncontrolled airspace” down to low level, is covered by radar. In England, for example, the only area where radar cover is patchy is in and around Sheffield where coverage is shielded by the Peaks

2. Under normal circumstances, military aircraft cannot enter or cross civilian airways or enter control zones/areas without at the least coordination with civil air traffic services, and more often not without actually communicating with civil air traffic services

3. Outside of controlled airspace (and by this I mean off airways and outside of air traffic control zones/areas around airports), ANYONE is free to “do what ever they fancy” be they civil, military or general aviation – in these areas there is no mandatory requirement to participate in an air traffic service even if radar coverage and a service is available

The biggest problems as far as near misses is concerned comes when airline services are operated off airways. Such services operate in uncontrolled airspace – whether a service is available or not, there is no mandatory requirements to participate. It therefore follows that in such airspace, whilst a radar service can provide separation and avoidance information, it may be to neither party, one party or both parties depending on whether they decide to participate or not.

When I worked for a large UK airline, one of our services sometimes went out over East Anglia off airways, using when it was available the services of Eastern Radar which is a military service. Firstly, the service wasn’t always available, and secondly even when it was there was no obligation for all traffic in the area to use it. But it was cheaper to go that way than to go down to Clacton and across the channel. Fortunately, the airline didn’t tend to use the route when Eastern Radar was off air, but not everyone is like that.

When airlines stop flight planning services through uncontrolled airspace (not always an easy choice – they don’t always want to use airways because that can involve longer routings), that’s when the number of air misses will reduce.

Andy

the problem is Military and civil ATC are two sperate entities. Military jets are literally free to do what ever they fancy…. this leads to a lot of near missed with commuter planes. Military aviation should be controlled by national ATC. then the near misses would be stopped, or at the very least reduced

Thats something of an over-simplification…

1. Almost all of the UK including “uncontrolled airspace” down to low level, is covered by radar. In England, for example, the only area where radar cover is patchy is in and around Sheffield where coverage is shielded by the Peaks

2. Under normal circumstances, military aircraft cannot enter or cross civilian airways or enter control zones/areas without at the least coordination with civil air traffic services, and more often not without actually communicating with civil air traffic services

3. Outside of controlled airspace (and by this I mean off airways and outside of air traffic control zones/areas around airports), ANYONE is free to “do what ever they fancy” be they civil, military or general aviation – in these areas there is no mandatory requirement to participate in an air traffic service even if radar coverage and a service is available

The biggest problems as far as near misses is concerned comes when airline services are operated off airways. Such services operate in uncontrolled airspace – whether a service is available or not, there is no mandatory requirements to participate. It therefore follows that in such airspace, whilst a radar service can provide separation and avoidance information, it may be to neither party, one party or both parties depending on whether they decide to participate or not.

When I worked for a large UK airline, one of our services sometimes went out over East Anglia off airways, using when it was available the services of Eastern Radar which is a military service. Firstly, the service wasn’t always available, and secondly even when it was there was no obligation for all traffic in the area to use it. But it was cheaper to go that way than to go down to Clacton and across the channel. Fortunately, the airline didn’t tend to use the route when Eastern Radar was off air, but not everyone is like that.

When airlines stop flight planning services through uncontrolled airspace (not always an easy choice – they don’t always want to use airways because that can involve longer routings), that’s when the number of air misses will reduce.

Andy

Here is a local report from BBC’s Inside Out carried out last year:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/northeast/series6/collision_course.shtml

Here is a local report from BBC’s Inside Out carried out last year:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/northeast/series6/collision_course.shtml

Here is a report from the BBC about a near miss at NCL in 2002:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3209351.stm

An RAF pilot took “an unnecessary risk” which almost saw his fighter jet smash into a passenger plane over Tyneside, according to a report.
The high-speed Jaguar fighter, from RAF Coltishall, in Norfolk, was on a low-level training exercise over the north-east of England in July 2002, when the incident happened.

A report from the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) said an inbound passenger plane, with up to 50 people on board and the RAF jet came within 100ft of collision.

The CAA described the incident, shortly after 1400 BST on 2 July 2002, as one of the most serious ever.

The incident involved a RJ85 passenger plane flying from Brussels to Newcastle and happened about 22 miles south east of Newcastle Airport.

The Jaguar pilot was involved in a low-level training exercise with two other aircraft over the north-east of England.

The report says the fighter pilot began a steep climb after the exercise – directly into the path of the inbound passenger plane.

It says that instead of informing air traffic controllers at Newcastle Airport of his intention to climb, he spoke only to RAF personnel in London.

Staff in London told him another aircraft was just one mile away. But the Jaguar pilot wrongly assumed this was another military jet flying at low-level.

The report said cloudy conditions on the day added to an already dangerous situation and that the Jaguar pilot took an “unnecessary risk”.

The report says when the passenger plane pilot was asked 17 seconds after the near miss by a Newcastle Airport controller if he had received a message to take avoiding action, the pilot replied “it’s a little bit late”.

Afterr the incident the RAF changed its procedures involving crews training close to civilian air space.

A Ministry of Defence spokeswoman said an area of controlled airspace had been set up at Newcastle Airport which aircraft could only enter after contacting a controller.

The report said: “As it was, the subsequent encounter with the RJ85 was so close that only chance had prevented a collision.”

The RAF said it regarded the near miss as “very serious” and that a “strong directive” had been issued to all jet pilots to ensure such a similar incident could not happen again.

The pilot was not disciplined over the incident and the RAF said no actual rules had been broken.

I’ll keep trying to find something on today’s story.

Here is a report from the BBC about a near miss at NCL in 2002:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3209351.stm

An RAF pilot took “an unnecessary risk” which almost saw his fighter jet smash into a passenger plane over Tyneside, according to a report.
The high-speed Jaguar fighter, from RAF Coltishall, in Norfolk, was on a low-level training exercise over the north-east of England in July 2002, when the incident happened.

A report from the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) said an inbound passenger plane, with up to 50 people on board and the RAF jet came within 100ft of collision.

The CAA described the incident, shortly after 1400 BST on 2 July 2002, as one of the most serious ever.

The incident involved a RJ85 passenger plane flying from Brussels to Newcastle and happened about 22 miles south east of Newcastle Airport.

The Jaguar pilot was involved in a low-level training exercise with two other aircraft over the north-east of England.

The report says the fighter pilot began a steep climb after the exercise – directly into the path of the inbound passenger plane.

It says that instead of informing air traffic controllers at Newcastle Airport of his intention to climb, he spoke only to RAF personnel in London.

Staff in London told him another aircraft was just one mile away. But the Jaguar pilot wrongly assumed this was another military jet flying at low-level.

The report said cloudy conditions on the day added to an already dangerous situation and that the Jaguar pilot took an “unnecessary risk”.

The report says when the passenger plane pilot was asked 17 seconds after the near miss by a Newcastle Airport controller if he had received a message to take avoiding action, the pilot replied “it’s a little bit late”.

Afterr the incident the RAF changed its procedures involving crews training close to civilian air space.

A Ministry of Defence spokeswoman said an area of controlled airspace had been set up at Newcastle Airport which aircraft could only enter after contacting a controller.

The report said: “As it was, the subsequent encounter with the RJ85 was so close that only chance had prevented a collision.”

The RAF said it regarded the near miss as “very serious” and that a “strong directive” had been issued to all jet pilots to ensure such a similar incident could not happen again.

The pilot was not disciplined over the incident and the RAF said no actual rules had been broken.

I’ll keep trying to find something on today’s story.

the problem is Military and civil ATC are two sperate entities. Military jets are literally free to do what ever they fancy…. this leads to a lot of near missed with commuter planes.

Military aviation should be controlled by national ATC. then the near misses would be stopped, or at the very least reduced

the problem is Military and civil ATC are two sperate entities. Military jets are literally free to do what ever they fancy…. this leads to a lot of near missed with commuter planes.

Military aviation should be controlled by national ATC. then the near misses would be stopped, or at the very least reduced