November 10, 1938

RE: November 10, 1938

All I’m saying is, go and find your friendly neighbourhood
Kurdish immigrant and ask him. He may have a different and
more in depth ‘opinion’ than yours Arthur. There is a
reason Turkey has that reputation.

I have spoken with Kurdish refugees, and in no way do i want to belittle what the Turks are doing there. It is highly unsound, brutal and violent. However, if you think this is evidence that all Turkish policemen or soldiers are brutal and violent and behave disgustingly all the time, i don´t agree with you.

That’s odd. I always felt like cattle stewing in my own
filth in the tourist areas. I swear, those Scandanavians
aren’t as clean as they seem.

Tell me about it… same goes with most tourists by the way.

From a man who has spent many months in the villages of
Greece, I can’t say I’ve seen what you’re talking about.
I’ve seen the odd dead animal, but they were road kill (yes,
road kill-deer anyone?).

Perhaps the difference is that i made a lot of kilometres in Greece moving from airfield to airfield. Most of the carcasses are definately roadkill, but if a dead sheep looks like a prop from a horror movie i think it should have been removed some time ago. I saw it a lot.

Well, I don’t think the cops are there to be ‘nice’ if
that’s what your talking about.
They don´t have to be nice, they just have to be correct. To protect and to serve.

And no Arthur, I’m afraid Turkey is still a country where people are jailed for political reasons.

Sorry Icarus, but i can´t restrain myself here: you yourself claimed that Greece is a country where people are acquitted for political reasons 😀

Sometimes, kids will be kids. The fact that by far the most
accidents happen in the mountain roads IMHO shows something.

Then why is the accident rate in other mountainous, motorised countries like Switzerland and Norway so much lower? Driving discipline is the answer that comes to my mind.

Also, when a motorbike slams into an Alpha Romeo head on on
a winding hill road, trust me, I’ve seen the aftermath.

Oh yes, i know how such accidents look. The last time i threw up for seeing something like that was in Russia, also a frontal accident where at least one of the vehicles was driving in the wrong lane with excessive speed…

Though Greek drivers have the well deserved reputation of
being very aggresive.
…well, you can´t deny this agression makes a lot of victims.

>>>>Very good. Hope it helps, but in spring 2000 it still took longer to drive a car from Marathon (yes, Kotroni ) to Athens than a certain runner did a few millenia ago.

Funny. Seriosuly though, things are much better and getting
even better.

I am serious, it took more than three hours to drive from Kotroni to just outside Pireas (after doing the airbases North of Athens, we were then to move on to the Peloponessos). I don´t know where the historical marathon ended exactly, but i presume it was somewhere near the Parthenon. I don´t think we could have driven there in less time. But i´m glad things are moving in the right direction.

Soon you will be able to go from Araxos and Andravidia to
Nea Anhialos without going near Athens Arthur.

I don´t deny there is progress in Greece logistics, and i´m seriously happy about it. When i was there, the highway was half finished between Korinte and Patras, and there was not much to see of the bridge itself except for the huge signs showing wat was going to be built. And which supranational organisation pays for it, of course. Although the armada of mini-ferries crossing at that point is an experience which i can recommend to many people. Although it was slowly and cumbersome, i had great fun on those ferries (the last Friday of the trip, we left the Peloponessos and drove relaxed to Agrinion for the F-104 storage. Fridays are relaxed planespotting days in Greece since the EPA doesn´t fly on Fridays, except for QRA missions).

Please don´t think i´m anti-Greek because i am not. Just because i liked other countries better doesn´t mean anything – for me, Greece is more or less on the same level as far as countries can be rated fr their fun-level as France.

RE: November 10, 1938

>>>That’s news for me.. where did you hear that, or when did we run out of whore houses. Honestly, don’t believe what you hear.<<<

There are many such documented cases. It’s sick.

http://web.amnesty.org/web/wwa.nsf/8764c1a29cfd135f80256a3800423470/c90…

>>>By the way, they keep playing this Greek techno on Turkish radio..any ideas..?<<<

Could be one of Despina Vandi’s new ones.

http://www.garfi.gen.tr/muzik.asp?download=185

http://www.vandiportal.tk/

Line 2 of the metro is a real treat….

http://www.ametro.gr/main/communication/gallery/images/suntagma-dafni/1…

http://users.hol.gr/~ianlos/a001.htm

RE: November 10, 1938

“Rape against Kurdish females especially is rampant”

That’s news for me.. where did you hear that, or when did we run out of whore houses. Honestly, don’t believe what you hear.

RE: November 10, 1938

By the way, they keep playing this Greek techno on Turkish radio..any ideas..?

RE: November 10, 1938

It says, if there is no terror (done by fener fans) then there is no fener. It’s just commenting about the nasty stuff they did in the last derby. Trust me I had a roommate who was a Fener fan.. we didn’t have the nicest relationship to be exact.. ..

while on greek roads.. Turkey’s road do really suck.. did you know that every car produced in Turkey has higher graund clearance than their european predecessors. Clio’s look like S.U.V. 🙂

It’s been 5-7 years and we are still waiting for the Metro to come where my mom’s house is, in Ankara. There a sign on a long strech of grass aera that says. “reserved for metro”.. So I ahve to ride the double deckers to the city center.

RE: November 10, 1938

>>>Uhhh… Icarus, if i give personal comments about my personal observations it isn´t really necessary to counter those with links or suggestions. You´ll need a lot more to make me change my perception of the things i´ve seen and experienced. There is a life outside of URL´s, you know.<<<

All I’m saying is, go and find your friendly neighbourhood Kurdish immigrant and ask him. He may have a different and more in depth ‘opinion’ than yours Arthur. There is a reason Turkey has that reputation.

>>>The tourist areas in Greece are clean, it´s the rest of the country which i condidered a total dump.<<<

That’s odd. I always felt like cattle stewing in my own filth in the tourist areas. I swear, those Scandanavians aren’t as clean as they seem.

>>>I couldn´t believe the first two rotting sheep carcasses rotting beside the public road (this was near Tatoi-Dekelia, on my first day of planespotting and within the Athens city boundaries), but after a day or two i didn´t notice anymore until i came across the awfully smelling carcass of a cow right between the bus terminal and the village of Tanagra. And it seems that every village, town, city, settlement or hamlet in Greece just picks the nearest valley or gorge, use it as garbage disposal, and takes the next one without bothering to clean it up. In all honesty: rural, non-touristic Greece is filthy.<<<

From a man who has spent many months in the villages of Greece, I can’t say I’ve seen what you’re talking about. I’ve seen the odd dead animal, but they were road kill (yes, road kill-deer anyone?).

>>>True, last year there were less suspects clubbed to death in Greek police stations. And i know human rights are a very serious issue in Turkey, while Greece isn´t any worse than France (to name one). But that´s when it comes to criminals – i was talking about the impression i had from being a traveller with just normal, superficial contacts with the police.<<<

Well, I don’t think the cops are there to be ‘nice’ if that’s what your talking about. And no Arthur, I’m afraid Turkey is still a country where people are jailed for political reasons. Rape against Kurdish females especially is rampant. The EU has asked that these be fixed.

>>>I don´t care if motorbikes ride off a cliff, it´s usually just the rider of those things who gets injured. If he had driven more carefully or had left that extra bottle of retsina nothing would have happened. But i´m talking about the dozens of Ford Granada´s and Taunuses and Opel Asconas ignoring all regulair precautions on windy village roads, smashing other cars, people and cattle (the latter is of course left on the spot it died). And while Turkey has roads which are just as winding… etcetera.<<<

Sometimes, kids will be kids. The fact that by far the most accidents happen in the mountain roads IMHO shows something. Also, when a motorbike slams into an Alpha Romeo head on on a winding hill road, trust me, I’ve seen the aftermath.

Though Greek drivers have the well deserved reputation of being very aggresive.

>>>Very good. Hope it helps, but in spring 2000 it still took longer to drive a car from Marathon (yes, Kotroni ) to Athens than a certain runner did a few millenia ago.<<<

Funny. Seriosuly though, things are much better and getting even better.

http://www.halcrow.com/images/attiki1.jpg

Soon you will be able to go from Araxos and Andravidia to Nea Anhialos without going near Athens Arthur.

http://www.menck.com/Bilder/gefyramap.gif
http://www.gefyra.gr/English/WorksProgress/Images_pages_materials/Image…

RE: November 10, 1938

>>>umm.. Good job actually .. I am a gala fan .. do you even know what that says?<<<

I don’t. Could you translate it? Anyhow, I’ve spoken to a few Turkish people and they are really taken at how Gala fans, and Besiktas fans etc have been downright brutal in their hate to Fener about this derby. Some have even openly supported Panathinaikos. Such is the hate between clubs in Turkey (not all people obviously).

But all Greeks, even PAO’s worst enemies (Olympiakos) fans supported PAO (barring some here and there).

The Fener/Gala relationship seems alot like the PAO/Olym relationship.

P.S That banner is why Fener refused to allow it’s fans to go to Athens for yesterday’s game. It appears they really feared for their lives.

RE: November 10, 1938

Uhhh… Icarus, if i give personal comments about my personal observations it isn´t really necessary to counter those with links or suggestions. You´ll need a lot more to make me change my perception of the things i´ve seen and experienced. There is a life outside of URL´s, you know.

Well some of that may be due to the tourists (14 million
plus last year). In Crete, you should see how many guys
they have cleaning up the beaches after a hot summers day.
And those aren’t Greeks there.

The tourist areas in Greece are clean, it´s the rest of the country which i condidered a total dump. I couldn´t believe the first two rotting sheep carcasses rotting beside the public road (this was near Tatoi-Dekelia, on my first day of planespotting and within the Athens city boundaries), but after a day or two i didn´t notice anymore until i came across the awfully smelling carcass of a cow right between the bus terminal and the village of Tanagra. And it seems that every village, town, city, settlement or hamlet in Greece just picks the nearest valley or gorge, use it as garbage disposal, and takes the next one without bothering to clean it up. In all honesty: rural, non-touristic Greece is filthy.

We may not be perfect, but the Greek police are sure as hell
not on the level on the above (and more). Though there are
some issues with police liking to pull out their guns in
Greece alittle too quickly, but today new resolutions making
it harder for cops to take out and use their weapons has
been tabled.

True, last year there were less suspects clubbed to death in Greek police stations. And i know human rights are a very serious issue in Turkey, while Greece isn´t any worse than France (to name one). But that´s when it comes to criminals – i was talking about the impression i had from being a traveller with just normal, superficial contacts with the police.

>>>and IMHO made a much more open, friendly impression than Greece. Especially outside the tourist areas.<<<

In your opinion.

No, in my humble opinion. That´s what the IMHO stands for 😉

>>>>And you won´t believe it, but apart from Istanbul, Turkish drivers are far more capable of holding a steering wheel than your average Greek driver.<<<

Now this I really resent. True accidents in Greece are TOO
TOO HIGH, but have you seen those windy village roads? It’s
not the drivers as so much as it is the mountain roads. Not
to mention that a large chunk of accidents occur from motor
bikes.

I don´t care if motorbikes ride off a cliff, it´s usually just the rider of those things who gets injured. If he had driven more carefully or had left that extra bottle of retsina nothing would have happened. But i´m talking about the dozens of Ford Granada´s and Taunuses and Opel Asconas ignoring all regulair precautions on windy village roads, smashing other cars, people and cattle (the latter is of course left on the spot it died). And while Turkey has roads which are just as winding… etcetera.

>>>>Traffic in Greece is definately hell, unless you want to surpass your own limits of antisocial behaviour of course.<<<

ANd that’s why we have the following projects:

http://www.minenv.gr/4/45/4504/e450401.html
http://www.egnatia.gr/text/en/index.html
http://www.aodos.gr/
http://www.metropla.net/eu/ath/athens.htm
http://www.tram.gr/

Very good. Hope it helps, but in spring 2000 it still took longer to drive a car from Marathon (yes, Kotroni 😉 ) to Athens than a certain runner did a few millenia ago.

>>>>Nothing personal, just some observations.<<<

Of course not Arthur. 😉 Happy spotting….

Thanks Icarus, and happy maple leafing to you! 😀

RE: November 10, 1938

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 15-11-02 AT 06:38 AM (GMT)]umm.. Good job actually .. I am a gala fan :).. do you even know what that says?

http://www.aslanlar.net/wallpaper/welcometohellolimpiyat4.jpg

Anyhow.. this was from the first match.. hehe

Attachments:

RE: November 10, 1938

Btw Jeun, sorry about Fenerbache…. 🙂

http://www.antifenerbahce.net/

http://antifb.defter.net/v2/images/terorfb.jpg

RE: November 10, 1938

>>>I travelled through both countries, they are both uniquely striking, but i would take Istanbul over Athens anyday, and dipshit i am not on the morphine or wacky tabbacky, I see more of the world in a month than you do in 10 years, so i think i can be a pretty sound judge, after all i fly people to the places they want to go.<<<

Thank you but I have travelled many countries. Istanbul may have a nice skyline, and very mordern skyscrapers, but such things are not the measurement of a whole country.

You know that Istanbul has slums right?

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=istanbul+slums

I won’t take away anything from a country’s beatuy, but you need to relax alittle. Athens is a city rapidly changing. Hellinikon is gone. Venizelos airport is here now. New Olympic parks. The signs in and around Syntagma and Omonia are coming down. They are also both getting makeovers. The metro has eased traffic with Line 2 being done in 2000 and Line 3 being made. With new standards and new cars, pullotion is falling. Mass tree plantings and new parks. The mini Acropolis park, cobble stone paths etc linking all the sites around the Acropolis is almost done.

>>>so try getting out of Greece and seeing for yourself how nice Turkiye is. Oh and by the way our family live in Glyfada and Voulogmeni in Greece, two of the more upmarket areas of Athens.<<<

Nai re malaka. Siga min eisai Ellinas esi. Etsi na milas yia tin Ellada. Den eheis sevazmo katholi.

RE: November 10, 1938

>>>While Turkey is indeed visibly poorer than Greece,<<<

It is.

>>>it is also much less littered (i´m not talking invisible pollution here, just the basic stuff people throw around),<<<

Well some of that may be due to the tourists (14 million plus last year). In Crete, you should see how many guys they have cleaning up the beaches after a hot summers day. And those aren’t Greeks there.

>>>has far friendlier policemen<<<

http://www.diaspora-net.org/Turkey/danish.html

http://www.hr-action.org/thr/Reuters031296.html

http://www.kurdistan.org/Prisons/npr.html

http://www.ozgurluk.org/hrights/torture.html

http://www.amnestyusa.org/turkey/women.html

We may not be perfect, but the Greek police are sure as hell not on the level on the above (and more). Though there are some issues with police liking to pull out their guns in Greece alittle too quickly, but today new resolutions making it harder for cops to take out and use their weapons has been tabled.

>>>and IMHO made a much more open, friendly impression than Greece. Especially outside the tourist areas.<<<

In your opinion.

>>>And you won´t believe it, but apart from Istanbul, Turkish drivers are far more capable of holding a steering wheel than your average Greek driver.<<<

Now this I really resent. True accidents in Greece are TOO TOO HIGH, but have you seen those windy village roads? It’s not the drivers as so much as it is the mountain roads. Not to mention that a large chunk of accidents occur from motor bikes.

>>>Traffic in Greece is definately hell, unless you want to surpass your own limits of antisocial behaviour of course.<<<

ANd that’s why we have the following projects:

http://www.minenv.gr/4/45/4504/e450401.html

http://www.egnatia.gr/text/en/index.html

http://www.aodos.gr/

http://www.metropla.net/eu/ath/athens.htm

http://www.tram.gr/

>>>Nothing personal, just some observations.<<<

Of course not Arthur. 😉 Happy spotting….

RE: November 10, 1938

“well , I’m not going to comment about Ataturk at all , after all , the crime of finishing the Otomon Ipire and serving the enemy is NOT forgivable .”

Don’t get anything. serving the enemy? Was he suppose to include all Syrians in Turkey also? Otttoman Empire was dead long before.. Here is my Question Why do Arabs hate him as much as they do? you don’t have to forgive.. You are an Arab.. he is not an Arab and Turks are not Arabs and Ottoman Empire wasn’t arabic.

RE: November 10, 1938

well , I’m not going to comment about Ataturk at all , after all , the crime of finishing the Otomon Ipire and serving the enemy is NOT forgivable .

but what I am going to comment about is this continuose attack by some Greeks againist Turky .

I am Syrian , I have been to Turkey 8 times and to Greece twice , I have travelled so much around the world , you want my openion ? I’d rather live in Turkey my whole live than be any where else , including both Syria and Saudi Arabia .

the kind of genorocity and hospitality I was met up with in all the Turkish cities and villeges I’ve been to can NOT be found anywhere else in the whole world .

I’m not going to talk about the way the Greeks where acting just because I am an Arab . the savage racists .

I still can’t understand why NO ONE sees the relation between religion and hate the Greeks have for Turkey .

BTW , THIS IS NOT MENT AS AN INSULT FOR GREEKS AT ALL , in NO WAY I would mean any insult for the Greek people , I am just practicing my right in a free openion , I now that good people and bad people can be found on each and every nation , that includes BOTH Turkey and Greece .

RE: November 10, 1938

Ladies, isnt it about time you all grew up, this is like a 2 year old wanting its mums milk, nothing but annoying, I mean its rather boring now.

RE: November 10, 1938

They do, it’s all over the wires.

The BM is no longer allowed to ask an entrance fee for it’s permanent expositions. Yet, they can ask entrances for temporary exhibitions. They hope to be able to give the EM to the Athens historical museum, and make arrangements for Greek collections to rotate through the BM. For these latter, the BM can ask an entrance fee and hence do something about it’s poor financial situation. They are now waiting for a reply from Athens (but this will probably take a year or so }> ).

Surprised you didn’t know that.

As for the sarcasm: sorry, i didn’t get it. I’m quite humourless when people start babbling over Chinese supremacy, Grossdeutschland, non-Islamic infidels or Greater Greece. Better put a smiley icon with it next time 😉

RE: November 10, 1938

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 14-11-02 AT 02:56 PM (GMT)]thanx for the history lesson, look up sarcasm in a dictionary and find out what it means Arthur!!

>So stop living in the past, and be happy that the British Museum wants to get rid of the Elgin marbles.

What are your news sources??!! BM doesn’t want to get rid of them on the contrary it is still as stubborn as ever regarding the marbles, they mean as much to the greek psyche as the crown jewels to the british!

RE: November 10, 1938

Eastern Turkey is Greece? Well, indeed, so is Afghanistan. And Syria. While Egypt is British, Crete German, the Netherlands Spanish, Belarus is Lithuanian, Poland is Swedish, Slovakia is Austrian, Laos is French, the Virgin Islands are Danish and Eastern New Guinea is German.

Ad0nis, i know Western Turkey used to be part of the Hellenic culture. It isn´t anymore, so cut that crap. Borders change, peoples move, and at some stage you better learn to live with that. So stop living in the past, and be happy that the British Museum wants to get rid of the Elgin marbles.

RE: November 10, 1938

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 14-11-02 AT 12:46 PM (GMT)]The whole eastern coast of turkey is greek anyways so yes turkey is great!

RE: November 10, 1938

so try getting out of Greece and seeing for yourself how nice Turkiye is. Oh and by the way our family live in Glyfada and Voulogmeni in Greece, two of the more upmarket areas of Athens.