Obamah

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GA

I Think that this posting, (As far as I am concerned has run it’s life) I think the point I was making, ie taking the “P” as what was displayed by one of the protestors banners made the point I was trying to make very clear.(Post 40)
Thanks for all your varied comments, I am sure this is a subject that could carry on forever, as their are so many differing views, not only on the posting originaly, but also the comparisons regarding religons, etc.

Lincoln. 7

Thanks for that, I did read it and can understand that some people may see it that way but then I would see it that those people cannot separate extremists from moderates as others have already pointed out.

It would be like like assuming that an Amish farmer is no different to an active member of the IRA during the height of the troubles, they are both Christian so what is the difference?

But the opening post was

I am therefore confused slightly by your stance on this though I may have missed something.

As for the attitude of some right wing groups, this seems to be part of the lack of understanding by two groups that leads to conflict and sadly often violence that has been going on for centuries and causing an awful lot of collateral damage in the interim

See Post 40, and what was on one of the protestors banners.

Lincoln. 7

In your honest opinion, why has there been as you quote, a dislike between Islam and Christianity?
Lincoln. 7

History.

Regards,

kev35

All I did was to post what Obama stated on Sky T.V earlier today,
Personaly, they could build any religious building they like, I couln’t care less
as it will not affect me in any way, shape, or form.
Lincoln. 7

But the opening post was

NOW IF THATS NOT TAKING THE P*** then I don’t know what is.

Lincoln. 7

I am therefore confused slightly by your stance on this though I may have missed something.

As for the attitude of some right wing groups, this seems to be part of the lack of understanding by two groups that leads to conflict and sadly often violence that has been going on for centuries and causing an awful lot of collateral damage in the interim

I’m withdrawing from the discussion now, as I have a feeling that I might need to return to this thread in an “official” capacity at some future point.

Be nice to each other, and bear the Code of Conduct in mind – especially Item 5 – as you contribute.

I think there has been a ‘dislike’ between Islam and Christianity for rather more than the last nine years.

Regards,

kev35

Kev, I read all you post, and you always make sence in your answers that are posted.
In your honest opinion, why has there been as you quote, a dislike between Islam and Christianity?
Lincoln. 7

That’s right, but I was more specifically referring to Islam and U.S. Citizens, with Conservative Christians as a focus point within that group. It wasn’t only Christians in the US that were appalled by the extremist acts in 9/11 and appalled by the prospect of a new mosque in that area.

I think there has been a ‘dislike’ between Islam and Christianity for rather more than the last nine years.

Regards,

kev35

$100 million I think the mosque will take to build, personally I can see far more and far greater areas of society that the $100m could go into than religion (note also that in the local and perhaps even national scale, it could also contribute towards further fracturing of the already huge divide between US citizens/Christians and Islam… and they’re paying $100m for that?), but that’s just my personal opinion that I don’t want to force on anyone.

However, if as a society the US is going to recognise religion as an important part of daily life, then recognise it fairly and evenly. As I said, I could see infinitely more useful ways in which that $100m could be used, but if money is going to be used on religion then use it evenly and give Islam as much right to it as Christianity. I personally don’t see anything wrong with the location, it’s 2 blocks away from ground zero its self and I gravely doubt it’s being set up with the intention of being used as a ‘victory’ marker. The extremists who flew planes into the twin towers should be associated no more with mainstream Islam than Christians would want the KKK or the barbaric acts of the Crusades associated with mainstream Christianity.

I wonder if any Conservative Christians have or would have a problem with Christian churches being built in Antioch.

Still though, while I might be putting this very cynically and a lot of people may have a problem with what I’m about to say, I’ll say this anyway. I see this quite bluntly as not only $100 million thrown into a useless part of society when it could be used to instead fund education, healthcare or saving the lives of 100,000s of people in Pakistan; I also see it as money being spent (inadvertently and unintentionally) to drive a wedge between 2 groups of peoples who already have grown a large dislike for eachother over the last 9 years. As I said first though, those are my views and I don’t wish or intend to force them on anyone.

If you are against this, Lincoln, I presume you would be against building churches close to the site of the Virginia tech shootings or the Okhaloma bombings? Both of these attacks were carried out by Christian people. And anyway, is building a mosque an insult to the Muslim Americans who died in the attacks? How close is too close?

As long as a religion or any other organisation does not infringe on the freedoms of others then I don’t have a problem, but if they do then this cannot continue. Consequently, I also think that the State must not have an opinion on religious matters, to endorse one or the other leads only to oppression and favouritism.

I think we could learn from Voltaire:
“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

Whilst I agree with some of what you say, bearing in mind also the death of American Muslims, knowing that the Muslims who carried out this act, were people who have no regards for others lives, they are hardly likely to inform the American Muslims who worked in the twin towers their intentions were they?.Even though they were of the same Faith/religeon.
Lincoln. 7

Sigh……

Which bit of “it isn’t a mosque” do you find unclear, Lincoln 7?

There are two actual mosques within a few blocks of the site, and no-one seems to be bothered about them in the slightest.

Funny, that.

What are exactly a “Few BLOCKS?. As and seemingly wrongly informed by the Americans state TWO blocks. And may it just be possibly right to think these two Mosques were built BEFORE the disaster of the twin towers?.when no one would have made any protests at all.

Lincoln. 7

Sigh……

Which bit of “it isn’t a mosque” do you find unclear, Lincoln 7?

There are two actual mosques within a few blocks of the site, and no-one seems to be bothered about them in the slightest.

Funny, that.

If you are against this, Lincoln, I presume you would be against building churches close to the site of the Virginia tech shootings or the Okhaloma bombings? Both of these attacks were carried out by Christian people. And anyway, is building a mosque an insult to the Muslim Americans who died in the attacks? How close is too close?

As long as a religion or any other organisation does not infringe on the freedoms of others then I don’t have a problem, but if they do then this cannot continue. Consequently, I also think that the State must not have an opinion on religious matters, to endorse one or the other leads only to oppression and favouritism.

I think we could learn from Voltaire:
“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

But is it a cultural centre or a Mosque? A cultural centre I can possibly see the value of. Having said that I can see the value of a Mosque if you are Moslem. But, although most Moslems we accept to be law abiding and peace loving members of the community, there are those who would take the building of a Mosque near the World Trade Centre site as an opportunity to rub America’s nose in it.

J Boyle wrote…

We are always being told that the majority of Moslems are decent, open minded people who aren’t terrorists, or zealots that do “honor killings” or all the other things that gets their religion into the front page.
Here’s another chance for them to speak up.

Will they?

I suspect not, unless the project is quashed. Then I would imagine their voices may be raised against America for violating their human rights and civil liberties by not allowing the building of a Mosque on the site.

Sort of Catch 22 I suspect.

Regards,

kev35

Kev. I sent pkm a PM explaining as to why I didn’t answer his questions, as I could see it would possibly be seen by some as racist, however on the 18.00 hrs ITV news last night, there were several thousand protestors outside the area where the world trade towers were, many were carrying banners etc, and one stated words to the effect “Why are we giving them a trophy for what they did?.)ie, building a mosque so close to the site, which as I agree with you, is tantamount to rubbing the Americans nose in it.Perhaps now you may see the reason I was somewhat skirting the questions I was being asked, as I am not a racist, and the forum is not for those that are.
Lincoln. 7

But is it a cultural centre or a Mosque? A cultural centre I can possibly see the value of. Having said that I can see the value of a Mosque if you are Moslem. But, although most Moslems we accept to be law abiding and peace loving members of the community, there are those who would take the building of a Mosque near the World Trade Centre site as an opportunity to rub America’s nose in it.

J Boyle wrote…

We are always being told that the majority of Moslems are decent, open minded people who aren’t terrorists, or zealots that do “honor killings” or all the other things that gets their religion into the front page.
Here’s another chance for them to speak up.

Will they?

I suspect not, unless the project is quashed. Then I would imagine their voices may be raised against America for violating their human rights and civil liberties by not allowing the building of a Mosque on the site.

Sort of Catch 22 I suspect.

Regards,

kev35

Personaly, they could build any religious building they like, I couln’t care less
as it will not affect me in any way, shape, or form.
Lincoln. 7

That’s just it, if you had lost family in the attack, your views might very well be different.

Imagine a place of great loss of life by German bombing in the war…and then BMW decides it wants to build a factory on it.
Or a Japanese firm wants to build an anime theme park within sight of The USS Arizona memorial at Peral Harbor or a Commonwealth war cemetary in in Burma.

I can see their concerns. Again, something that should be able to be decided by sensitive people without calling the people against it xenophobic racists or the like.

Of course what makes America (and other western nations) great is that it would allow something like this.
Again, we have to prove to be “the better man” by allowing liberties to others that they would not allow us in their homelands.

Here’s an example of what’s being said in NY by two lawmmakers:
Lawmaker #1: 9-11 was done by al queda, not Islam.
Lawmaker #2: But it was done in the name of Islam.

Of course both are right.

Whats’s sad is that proponents of the Mosque don’t seem to see the sensitivity of the issue…or just don’t care.
It seems that reasonable people would back off on their request and go elsewhere in the area that everyone would agree on.

Too much to hope for?

We are always being told that the majority of Moslems are decent, open minded people who aren’t terrorists, or zealots that do “honor killings” or all the other things that gets their religion into the front page.
Here’s another chance for them to speak up.

Will they?

Utter nonsense. Your comments so far come across as ill-informed and ignorant; all I’m trying to do is understand exactly what you’re thinking so I know whether that’s true or not. I don’t want to misunderstand you, hence me asking for clarification. It has nothing whatsoever to do with drawing an argument and everything to do with trying to understand what you’re talking about. So far you’ve completely failed to explain the points you’re trying to make and resorted to sarcasm rather than going into any further detail, which doesn’t help.

If you want to express your thoughts then by all means do so, but at least be prepared to explain then properly.

All I did was to post what Obama stated on Sky T.V earlier today, no mention was made as to it being other than a Mosque.ie, a recreaton centre it would appear however, he has since his first statement clarified exacatly what is being built. Just seen the news again, and it would appear, that the Americans don’t like the idea.
Personaly, they could build any religious building they like, I couln’t care less
as it will not affect me in any way, shape, or form.
Lincoln. 7