Official List of Aircraft Price thread

Another RT viewer it seems…

http://www.china.org.cn/china/2016-12/27/content_39988627.htm

ever looked at a Chinese rocket ? Its a lot like looking at Chinese aircraft carriers. Even those space suits in that picture..

Russia’s military industry is thriving.

and its always funny to see people scoff about Russia being low tech while they are the only ones capable of bringing man into space.

Another RT viewer it seems…

http://www.china.org.cn/china/2016-12/27/content_39988627.htm

No, believing those numbers would require a level of suspension of disbelief similar to that required for an action movie…

Russia is wholly uncompetitive as a manufacturer and while the collapse of the Ruble helps some it isn’t going to come close to allowing them to sell a heavy weight twin engined fighter for less than half the cost of an F-16 or Gripen. Seriously, use your head for once.

If Russia were able to achieve such results in a high-tech industry they are wasting their time building fighter jets.

Edit:

For example India, hardly a high-cost producer, is building the latest order of Su-30MKIs at ~$75 million per unit. Do you honestly think Russia can produce an Su-35 for less than a third of the cost of what India can produce an Su-30MKI for? Think…

Russia’s military industry is thriving.

and its always funny to see people scoff about Russia being low tech while they are the only ones capable of bringing man into space.

I could certainly believe $123 million each, and even less than that. I don’t doubt that Russian fighters are cheaper than the Western competitors, they would have to be given Russia’s predominantly 3rd-world customer base. What they aren’t is one half or one third the cost of the cheapest Western fighters.

Nobody can build a modern fighter for less than half the cost of an F-16 or Gripen, and if somebody could it wouldn’t be Russia. (and it wouldn’t be a heavy-weight twin engined design)

A little commons sense should tell people that, but then common sense isn’t evenly distributed it seems…

Ruaf is adding 6 times more fighter per year than IAF and they are far modern and diverse in capabilities. It’s understandable that F16 will be several times more expensive than Su-30SM as Su30SM is majority built in Siberia where there is no population, turnover and cost pressure like Texas.

That’s nice but I am not living in a war zone..

It does not matter. SUVs like Landcruiser and Gaz Tigr has very high RTI index so the suspension don’t get deformed over curbs and potholes that enable it long life tires plus high resale. Germanic vehicles will bankrupt a country. Not even Middleastern Police is using them in mass quantities as they not reliable.. Than add Ambulance and cargo truckd based on Germanic tech. Let see how many Germanic vehicles and tanks Turkey use in syria. They are lucky that SAA and Ruaf is not blasting them. Lufthansa Technik and Turkish Technic are carbon copy.

Ugandan deal probably is the most comparable “all inclusive” deal similar to what Western manufacturers offer to 3rd world countries: weapons, spares, simulators, training, support etc. If so, $123 million apiece is still reasonably cheap, but not “omg I’ll buy a hundred” cheap.

I could certainly believe $123 million each, and even less than that. I don’t doubt that Russian fighters are cheaper than the Western competitors, they would have to be given Russia’s predominantly 3rd-world customer base. What they aren’t is one half or one third the cost of the cheapest Western fighters.

Nobody can build a modern fighter for less than half the cost of an F-16 or Gripen, and if somebody could it wouldn’t be Russia. (and it wouldn’t be a heavy-weight twin engined design)

A little commons sense should tell people that, but then common sense isn’t evenly distributed it seems…

The figure published by SAAB at the Gripen E rollout in May 2016 was 35,6 billion SEK for 60 aircrafts,
which is $65M at a 9,18 exchange rate.

The quote for Denmark was 22B Dkr for 48 aircrafts or $64M per aircraft (580 MSek), including spares.

http://www.nyteknik.se/fordon/har-ar-prislappen-pa-super-jas-6409662

It’s believeable. The above figure I gave included development cost for Swedish contract. The Danish one I am curious on:

That would essentially mean that Saab is not rolling dev costs into the package offered to Denmark, or the quote is a “flyaway” cost.

I also noticed that FMV has signed separate contracts for HMD, skyward IRST, Raven AESA. This may be similar to the flyaway of the Super Hornet that does not include government furnished equipment (like radar).

http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/gripen-raven-radar

???? Name a recent contract that does not include a lot of “extras”.

Look at the Swedish contract for the Gripen E, they aren’t 72 million. I forget the figure, but it was in the high 80’s, low 90’s.

The original contract between Saab and FMV was SEK 47.2 billion for the development and modification of Gripen C into E ( 85.8 million dollars per aircraft in today’s exchange rate, but contract was 2013). Since then, the Swiss dropped out and Sweden is getting new build aircraft.

The figure published by SAAB at the Gripen E rollout in May 2016 was 35,6 billion SEK for 60 aircrafts,
which is $65M at a 9,18 exchange rate.

The quote for Denmark was 22B Dkr for 48 aircrafts or $64M per aircraft (580 MSek), including spares.

http://www.nyteknik.se/fordon/har-ar-prislappen-pa-super-jas-6409662

Just so we are clear, you are saying that India is not producing Su-30MKIs at roughly $75 million apiece?

I am well aware of the extremely low prices quoted in the media for Russian fighters, but as I already explained, these numbers do not represent apples to apples comparisons with Western designs.

It’s true Su-30 sales have been often reported for very low prices:
-Malaysia 18 Su-30MKM’s (and two Malaysian cosmonauts for ISS) for $900M, 50 million USD per plane in 2003. Configuration is very similar to MKI, ie. top-end.
-Algeria, latest order was 14 aircraft reportedly for $500M, 36 million each, but this price estimate might have been guess by journalists.
-Venezuela, latest order (2015) is 12 Su-30’s for $480M, 40 million per plane. I don’t know avionics etc. configuration of Venezuelan planes.
-Vietnam, 2013 order of 12 planes was reportedly for $450M, $37,5million per plane. However this order has been also reported as $600 million (50 million per plane).
-Uganda’s 2011 order of six aircraft was for $740 million – 123 million per aircraft!

This news article examines Vietnamese deals, and mentions that 8 Su-30’s were $400M “without weapons” in 2009, next 12 “with weapons and spares” were $1 billion (83 million per plane) and next 12 were $600 million. Seems to me that some of the quoted very low prices for Su-30 deals cover only part of the deal, maybe only the initial batch, also they apparently often include only the planes themselves, not any accompanying spares etc (note the analoguous controversy about F-35 vs Super Hornet pricing in Danish evaluation). Also, Su-30 is available in variety of configurations, not all of which feature thrust vectoring engines and state-of-the-art avionic sets. I also wonder if some extraordinaly low prices were actually refurbished Su-27UB’s which were given Su-30 type avionics sets and weapon wirings.

Ugandan deal probably is the most comparable “all inclusive” deal similar to what Western manufacturers offer to 3rd world countries: weapons, spares, simulators, training, support etc. If so, $123 million apiece is still reasonably cheap, but not “omg I’ll buy a hundred” cheap.

???? Name a recent contract that does not include a lot of “extras”.

Brazilian deal is about very special extras, like a production line for another 100+ fighters, incl. re-export rights.
Name a recent contract which includes that..

Engines are part of the contract when Russian MOD orders domestic planes.

Usually MOD makes a contract with “Russian Helicopters”, or UAC, or Sukhoi, who then posts its own engine contracts.

MOD generally does not individually contract out engines unless it is a re-engine scheme within its own ARZ (avia-repair-factories).

We can safely discount weapons (MOD buys them sepretly, from say Tactical Missile Corps), there are no long term support packages obviously….but the price is for the bird and all integrated systems.

Yes, I am making an argument here.. I have explained the price difference to you..
– the deal is $75 mil a piece, but India will be left with a huge amount of left-over titanium and other raw materials which they can resell or recycle.. (or dump)

Except that having a heap of waste titanium is a pretty normal state of affairs for any such production for aviation products anywhere in the world. And the huge amount isn’t really a huge amount (in monetary terms).

Its the process of machining titanium that is an energy intensive and expensive venture. The metal itself isn’t that expensive (and what’s left over is probably sold off as scrap).

That’s the problem.. you don’t have any details on that, but you’re still playing smarta$$.. These cost do represent the price to build a complete aircraft, incl. propulsion.. In the case of Su-30SM or Su-30MKI even the cost of foreign equipment like Thales/Samtel displays, Thales or El-Op HUD, etc.

The press releases from the Russian MoD/OEM do not say what’s included and what’s not. Engines for one were contracted separately by India (follow-on).

UMPO to Start Shipping Engines to India

In the largest single contract with an international customer since the demise of the Soviet Union

The 10-year contract with India to ship AL-31FP engines was signed in October 2012. The first batch of ten engine sets will be shipped before the end of 1Q 2013.

India acquired the right (the option) to buy additionally these 920 AL-31FP engine sets in stages back in 2000, under the terms of a general contract for setting up production of Sukhoi Su-30MKI jets and AL-31FP engines under license.

The Ufa Engine Engineering Company OJSC is a major Russian manufacturer of aircraft engines, and part of the United Engine Engineering Corporation (a specialized subsidiary managing engine-making assets 100%-owned by Oboronprom). The company generated RUB 20,562 million in 2011 sales. The company is primarily involved in manufacture, servicing, and repairs of aircraft jet engines and gas pumps, manufacture and repairs of helicopter components and assemblies.

What is and isn’t included in the domestic contracts for the OEM still remains an unknown factor.

The Gripen order for Brazil includes a lot of extras.

.

???? Name a recent contract that does not include a lot of “extras”.

Look at the Swedish contract for the Gripen E, they aren’t 72 million. I forget the figure, but it was in the high 80’s, low 90’s.

The original contract between Saab and FMV was SEK 47.2 billion for the development and modification of Gripen C into E ( 85.8 million dollars per aircraft in today’s exchange rate, but contract was 2013). Since then, the Swiss dropped out and Sweden is getting new build aircraft.

The Gripen order for Brazil includes a lot of extras.

The cost of Gripen E for the Swedish Air Force is estimated to 35,6 B SEK for 60 planes.
The dollar rate is 9,18 which would give 65 M$ per plane.
The dollar rate was probably a little bit lower when the estimation was done, so real figure would be higher.
Price is probably based on cannibalizing Gripen C for some components, again making price higher for completely new planes.

I have seen the figure $72 M per plane.

And you think parts aren’t machined in Russia? Or that Su-30s built in Russia don’t use Russian parts? Do you really think you are making an argument here?

Yes, I am making an argument here.. I have explained the price difference to you..
– the deal is $75 mil a piece, but India will be left with a huge amount of left-over titanium and other raw materials which they can resell or recycle.. (or dump)
– the deal was closed in 2014 RUB/USD exchange rate. In today’s terms it would be only ~$41 mil and in Feb 2016 prices even less, only ~$32 mil

If you still think it’s not enough for you to grasp it, you can dig deeper by yourself, I’ve provided you plenty of hints, you know where to start..

I don’t have the details on that, but that doesn’t prevent me from recognizing an impossible number. In all likelihood different accounting methods are being used for costs/payments between government entities, similar to the “government furnished equipment” in aircraft like the F-35. It may be accurate on some level to say that a contract was signed and that the amount is XXX… but that contract may not represent the full cost of actually building a complete aircraft.

That’s the problem.. you don’t have any details on that, but you’re still playing smarta$$.. These cost do represent the price to build a complete aircraft, incl. propulsion.. In the case of Su-30SM or Su-30MKI even the cost of foreign equipment like Thales/Samtel displays, Thales or El-Op HUD, etc.

:rolleyes: No doubt you are quite the connoisseur of cars…

It depends.. I have five, four are German (as long as you count Cooper S as a BMW product) and one is US-made. 😉

BMW are for rent not buy. they cant do rough and tough performance and certainly very expensive maintaince. that’s why all this Middleast only Russian or Japanese light weight vehicles in war zone.

That’s nice but I am not living in a war zone..

That is not an explanation.. and BTW, I surely would not buy a Russian car, even if it was sold for 1/3rd the price of an BMW..

..

BMW are for rent not buy. they cant do rough and tough performance and certainly very expensive maintaince. that’s why all this Middleast only Russian or Japanese light weight vehicles in war zone.

Nope.. the situation is more complicated.. the last contract mandates that not only radars, avionics and propulsion, but also all raw materials, components (over 1,720,000 in total), metal plates, castings, forgings, bolts, screws and rivets must come from Russia (for whatever reason)..

As India’s Business Standard writes:
“For example, a 486 kg titanium bar supplied by Russia is whittled down to a 15.9 kg tail component. The titanium shaved off is wasted. Similarly a wing bracket that weighs just 3.1 kg has to be fashioned from a titanium forging that weighs 27 kg…. manufacturing sophisticated raw materials like titanium extrusions in India is not economically viable for the tiny quantities needed for Su-30MKI fighters.”

And you think parts aren’t machined in Russia? Or that Su-30s built in Russia don’t use Russian parts? Do you really think you are making an argument here?

OK, and in what way do they differ? enlighten me, pls..

I don’t have the details on that, but that doesn’t prevent me from recognizing an impossible number. In all likelihood different accounting methods are being used for costs/payments between government entities, similar to the “government furnished equipment” in aircraft like the F-35. It may be accurate on some level to say that a contract was signed and that the amount is XXX… but that contract may not represent the full cost of actually building a complete aircraft.

[quote That is not an explanation.. and BTW, I surely would not buy a Russian car, even if it was sold for 1/3rd the price of an BMW..[/quote]

:rolleyes: No doubt you are quite the connoisseur of cars…

Lots of cheap talk, zero arguments..

Yes, logic and common sense. I wouldn’t expect you to make heads or tails of it.

Yes, establishing an entirely new production line in India to build Rafales would cost more than buying them from the existing under-utilized line in France. but… India started manufacturing Su-30MKIs years and years ago. The line exists. The workers are trained. Those costs are sunk. If you told me it cost 10% or 20% or maybe even 50% more to build Su-30s in India than Russia I might believe you. There is no way it costs 3x to build them in India.

Explained in my previous message.. here the source..

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/india-ordering-modernizing-su-30mkis-05852/

But lets not lets facts get in the way of your ignorance.

Well, your problem is you don’t bring any facts, at all, you’re just yelling I DON’T BELIEVE IT! and RUSSIANS SUCK!.. take my advice and return to your F-35 APUC/PAUC figures, in terms of foreign aircraft you seem to be completely lost..

Just so we are clear, you are saying that India is not producing Su-30MKIs at roughly $75 million apiece?

Nope.. the situation is more complicated.. the last contract mandates that not only radars, avionics and propulsion, but also all raw materials, components (over 1,720,000 in total), metal plates, castings, forgings, bolts, screws and rivets must come from Russia (for whatever reason)..

As India’s Business Standard writes:
“For example, a 486 kg titanium bar supplied by Russia is whittled down to a 15.9 kg tail component. The titanium shaved off is wasted. Similarly a wing bracket that weighs just 3.1 kg has to be fashioned from a titanium forging that weighs 27 kg…. manufacturing sophisticated raw materials like titanium extrusions in India is not economically viable for the tiny quantities needed for Su-30MKI fighters.”

I am well aware of the extremely low prices quoted in the media for Russian fighters, but as I already explained, these numbers do not represent apples to apples comparisons with Western designs.

OK, and in what way do they differ? enlighten me, pls..

It would be as if Russia announced tomorrow that it was building a car competitive with the latest BMW, but planned to sell them at 1/3rd the price. Any reasonable person (which is obviously where I have gone wrong in trying to explain this to you…) would recognize that that is impossible.

That is not an explanation.. and BTW, I surely would not buy a Russian car, even if it was sold for 1/3rd the price of an BMW..

Cheaper labor, etc, might allow a developing world economy like Russia to produce a finished product slightly cheaper, but cheap labor can only do so much on a high tech product where labor is the minority of the total cost.

Russia is utterly uncompetitive as a manufacturer but you expect us to believe they are producing fighter jets for a third of the cost of the rest of the world. Engage your brain…

Lots of cheap talk, zero arguments..