One for RAF historians

Dan,

This could be ‘Night & Sky’, as the 1941 underside in the Spitfire diagrams.

Mark

Just to add fuel to the fire 🙂

Explain these two from 1941. Found in the Hawker Hurricane Mk.1/IV in Royal Air Force & Foreign Service by Richard Ward
from the old Arco-Aircam Aviation series.

Dan

“So did any fighter command aircraft fly in the battle of britain with half black/white underside colour scheme?

………………………………………………………………………………..

In theory ‘no’. In practice almost certainly ‘yes’.

We need to talk with the BoB aviation archaeologists.

What say you Geoff (Von Perthes)?

Mark “

According to a frequently published colour plate,the Spitfire flown by Sailor Malan during the Battle had the half black undersides.

Thanks VoyTech & Mark V,
I was just adding a 2d, and was wrong on the fact there was other orders issued. As Mark V said, I was just pointing out the old chestnut of Jubilee markings, as a result of several conversations I had recently with other people (some here) who’s hard work I was using… We agree. The operation I was thinking of was ‘Starkey’; but glad you found another! :p

I will withdraw quietly now.
Cheers!

Quote:
………………………………………………………………………………..

So did any fighter command aircraft fly in the battle of britain with half black/white underside colour scheme?

………………………………………………………………………………..

In theory ‘no’. In practice almost certainly ‘yes’.

We need to talk with the BoB aviation archaeologists.

What say you Geoff (Von Perthes)?

Mark

So did any fighter command aircraft fly in the battle of britain with half black/white underside colour scheme?

….and

Here is what James Goulding had to say, about 25 years ago, on the subject of undersurfaces for early Spitfires.

Mark

Originally posted by VoyTech

JDK, you are wrong (If I understood correctly the long word with ‘counter…’ at the beginning ;)). There was a Fighter Command signal sent in late June/early July (if my memory serves me) defining the white bands to be applied on noses and tails; then another one a few days later, making it clear to everyone that the white stripes on tail should be across not along the tailplane;

V.

Thats an impressivley long memory you have there VoyTech. I sense you and JDK are actually in agreement on the issue that the so-called Dieppe invasion stripes were not actually applied for the August 19th operation and that most, if not all, aircraft that were adorned with them earlier that Summer had them removed prior to Operation Jubilee.

Re: First Forum post

Skylark, your info about Hurricanes applies to other British fighters as well.

Originally posted by Skylarkhere
Apparently, the split White & Black underside was applied to RAF (Hurries) aircraft after the Munich Crisis of August 1938. This covered the complete wing underside meeting at the fuselage centreline. However, the ailerons, tail surface and the remainder of the fuselage were still aluminum.

I think it was common to all fighter types with the bottom of the fuselage either in black/white, or Aluminium schemes. This was probably due to unclear regulations and/or to the amount of work needed to repaint the fuselage undersides. Also, it was typical that ailerons and elevators originally finished in Aluminum were not repainted black or white, because the additional paint would affect the balance of the fabric covered control surfaces.

Originally posted by JDK
marking instructions were issed for ‘Operation Rutter’; an attack on Dieppe, and aircraft painted with the nose stripes. This operation was cancelled. Shortly afterwards, ‘Operation Jubilee’ went ahead, also an attack on Dieppe, and no special instructions for markings were issued; but the ‘Rutter’ instructions never seem to have been countermanded either.

JDK, you are wrong (If I understood correctly the long word with ‘counter…’ at the beginning ;)). There was a Fighter Command signal sent in late June/early July (if my memory serves me) defining the white bands to be applied on noses and tails; then another one a few days later, making it clear to everyone that the white stripes on tail should be across not along the tailplane; then there was a signal saying that these stripes were to be removed. All terminated by mid-July.

More confusing is that some markings were applied for a major wargames excercise (the name of which escapes me at the moment)

I think the exercise was called ‘Yukon’, and it introduced special markings for ‘Mustang aircraft’.

Originally posted by Col. Gibbon
The white stripes are a characteristic of the Dieppe landing.

I would rather say they are “characteristic of the Dieppe landing publications” ;).

Originally posted by Mogggy
Skylark, do you have any detailed info on how applicable the b/w scheme was to RAF fighters in general, and to bombers and other aircraft

It was applied to all Fighter Command aircraft from before the war until the Battle of France. Never applied to non-fighter types as this was a Fighter Command quick recognition marking (similar in concept to the later Sky band and spinner, but much larger…).

V.

Re: First Forum post

Originally posted by Skylarkhere
Well here’s my two cents…..
To get back to the first question…..with regards to Hurricane Squadrons.

Skylark, do you have any detailed info on how applicable the b/w scheme was to RAF fighters in general, and to bombers and other aircraft

“That Whirlwind model has me intrigued. Who makes it and what scale is it?

Wombat”

It looks very much like the 1:48th scale offering from Classic Airframes:

http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/reviews/allies/gb/cleaverwhirl.htm

Col

That Whirlwind model has me intrigued. Who makes it and what scale is it?

Wombat

This skin was done by one of our EAW members, Mosi.

Spit Mk Vb, No 340 (French) Squadron Île-de-France of Cdt. Bernard Depérier. The white stripes are a characteristic of the Dieppe landing.

Seems a masterly summery to me!
Welcome!

First Forum post

Well here’s my two cents…..
To get back to the first question…..with regards to Hurricane Squadrons.
Apparently, the split White & Black underside was applied to RAF (Hurries) aircraft after the Munich Crisis of August 1938. This covered the complete wing underside meeting at the fuselage centreline. However, the ailerons, tail surface and the remainder of the fuselage were still aluminum.
By September 1939 this split White & Black scheme was applied to the complete wing undersides (including the ailerons) while the fuselage remained aluminum of Squadron 1’s, 60’s & 67’s Hurricane during the Battle of France.
After May 15, 1940 this split White & Black scheme was applied to all of the Hurricane’s underside (wings, fuselage & tail) joining at the aircraft’s centerline.
On June 6th 1940 this paint scheme was dropped completely for the single application of “Sky” which then became the standard…..
Black was re-applied over “Sky” to the port wing underside only starting 27 November 1940 and then removed by April 22,1941.
The New “Day Scheme” was introduced 15 August 1941 with the Medium Sea Grey underside which seems to have remained the standard from the RAF Hurricanes for all frontline units. Except for the Night Fighter squadrons of course….
With the “Middle East Scheme” with the Azure Blue underside was introduced on 22 August 1942 and remained the standard for that theatre…..

Cheers mates

Hi all!

Another one for the collection.

The aircraft itself should represent an aircraft that was used as a fighter bomber in the Operation Starkey, against the miscaptions in most books which say that it is an aircraft used in the Dieppe raid.

http://www.uni-kassel.de/~hornc/Westland_Whirlwind.htm

Flood,

Here is a shot of SH-N of 64 Squadron from the album of Tony Cooper.

It shows applying the Tiger Stripes for ‘Operation Starkey’ prior to 9 September 1943.

Mark

I read once that the black wing/white wing was to signify that wa s the squadron leader’s aircraft but son’t know how true that was…

Don’t mean to confuse the issue further sorry…:confused:

Whilst searching for images of the elusive Operation Jubilee markings I found this:

Not conclusive (or even very convincing) but it does give the general idea. (It is apparently a ‘skin’ for the Air Warrior simulator – a Polish Spitire Vb of 303 Sqn August 42 in Operation “Jubilee” markings)

Other special markings? How about exercise Spartan – 3/43? Eastland (the enemy forces) apparently had a black distempered port wing and a white stripe from the spinner to the c0ckpit.
Or Operation Starkey – August and September 1943, designed to make the Germans believe that Europe was being invaded by systematically bombing targets in the ‘landing’ zone. Black and white stripes around the wing tips are supposed to have been the recognition feature – but no pictures have turned up.

Flood.