Only in America

Up late, aren’t you?

I do some of my best thinking at this time of night; well, I think so anyway!

Offering the choice between driving and drinking or guns is a pointless argument since it will never happen.

No, that’s not the choice I’m suggesting. Or the point I’m trying to make. I’m not suggesting any solutions, or defending gun-ownership; I’m just trying to find some sort of semi-parallel situation that may help to explain the attitude of American gun-owners. (maybe?)

A vehicle will get you from A to B usually, in the vast majority of cases, without killing anybody…

And a gun, in the vast majority of cases, will sit in a desk-drawer without killing anybody.

But what if the government decided to take your car away, or drastically restrict your use of it, because somebody else had killed a load of children at a bus-stop while drink driving (or even deliberately)?

Well,

Up late, aren’t you?

some of the above. I take your point about self-infliction but hear me out.

Take drink-driving, that kills people, innocent people, and we need to drive, but do we need alcohol? Why not ban alcohol completely and then the drink-driving problem would be solved, right?

(Etc)

Yes, a combination of drinking and driving is never going to be a vote winner, but you will not convince the vast majority that they need to give up their personal transport or the legal way to get off their heads; and you will always get the idiots who believe that a little drink doesn’t affect them, or even helps them drive better. Offering the choice between driving and drinking or guns is a pointless argument since it will never happen. The main thing here is that a gun is designed to be threatening and to maim or kill, whereas a vehicle will get you from A to B usually, in the vast majority of cases, without killing anybody and alcohol is a mind altering drink used to lower inhibitions and raise self confidence.

Allow guns in every class room.

Yes, yes, yes, so you’ve said. Did you ignore the bit where I said about not a gun in every classroom, or is that your entire argument and answer to everything? Rather than re-educate Americans about guns you would rather surrender the initiative to the threat and even create opportunities within a place that should be a sanctuary from such things. (And you said moronic quip about my enquiry!)

Perhaps putting the insane back into the asylums the liberal freed them from may help but then liberals control the press and Washington right now so that is not going to happen.

Nice – blame the mentally ill for each massacre, but would taking them out of the equation actually have an effect? Why not ban the mentally ill from owning or having access to guns, or does that infringe on the rights of Americans to own guns?
Oh, but when was the last massacre actually caused by a truly mentally ill person – rather than by somebody with depression, or who felt the world owed them a life that they hadn’t had until now, or who wanted to get revenge on society for perceived injustices?
If you are in the mood for refusing a section of society their right to have a weapon (which, it seems, you are not) why not ban caucasian males? How many massacres have been carried out by African Americans, or females?

As for your last moronic quip, do not know, do not care.

Ok, if your sister (or brother, if you have one) carried out a mass killing that was reviled throughout the country would you want those weapons used to be returned to you, as a member of her family?

how would you feel about some Yank (or Pole or Syrian) moaning about UK internal politics?

Yes, thank goodness America never gets involved in other peoples’ business. Er…hang on a moment…

Perhaps putting the insane back into the asylums the liberals freed them from…

I wish you advocates of a ‘well regulated militia’ would at least have the guts to just admit that you like guns, you want guns and you feel safer having them around…

…rather than try to blame all the problems on a political viewpoint you don’t agree with! :rolleyes:

As for putting the ‘insane back into the asylums’ (apart from being completely unworkable) I seem to remember that in the last couple of shooting-sprees (that made the headlines over here in the United Kingdom) the ‘insane’ perpetrator was a legal gun-owner…

…are these the sort of people you think should be in an asylum? Because, if you are suggesting this, I’m guessing you’ll get a fair amount of support for that idea from many members of this forum! 😉

Allow guns in every class room.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]241771[/ATTACH]

What could possibly go wrong?

Moggy

So, do tell us – so long as it is not a gun in every classroom which we already heard about, of course – what is your solution? How would you stop the disenchanted from making bombs, picking up their guns and planning a massacre?

Just a thought, but do the family of mass-killing gunman ever want the weaponry back?

Allow guns in every class room.

Perhaps putting the insane back into the asylums the liberal freed them from may help but then liberals control the press and Washington right now so that is not going to happen.

As for your last moronic quip, do not know, do not care.

I understand what you are saying, but am not totally sure what you are referring to. Is it nicotine? Driving? Alcohol abuse? Obesity?

Well, some of the above. I take your point about self-infliction but hear me out.

Take drink-driving, that kills people, innocent people, and we need to drive, but do we need alcohol? Why not ban alcohol completely and then the drink-driving problem would be solved, right?

And what about driving itself? Yes, we need cars (or we need transport), but how much of our driving is essential?

How many ‘innocent’ people are killed in accidents involving law-abiding drivers who are driving for pleasure: driving for a day out, to the cinema or a away football match? Are these trips really essential? How many lives would be saved if we all went on public transport?

And if you think the numbers ‘killed’ are inconsequential what were those figures quoted for air-pollution deaths in the United Kingdom: officially 29,000 per year (and it could be much higher if NOx deaths are included)? How many of these deaths are children, or babies even?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-32512152

How many of those innocent lives could be saved if we all drove only when essential…

…or better still, if the EU restricted our driving mileage every year, to save those innocent lives!

But what makes gun-ownership any different from any other human activity where ‘people are dying’?

Guns are unnecessary of course (well, mostly), and the number of deaths in the United States is staggering, but is the attitude to them any different from our own attitude to lots of things that cause unnecessary deaths of innocent people?

I understand what you are saying, but am not totally sure what you are referring to.
Is it nicotine? Driving? Alcohol abuse? Obesity?
These things are, mostly, self inflicted (we all drive cars, just about, and the tale of Roy Castle does prove that it is not just the smoker who is killing himself, but you know what I mean) whereas the gun (although in many cases will be utilised to self inflict after sharing their ‘pleasure’ around) is a one trick pony – you might get enjoyment from a cigarette, from driving your car, having a drink, from eating, but from a gun? The next of kin, the survivors, they will smoke and drive and drink and eat, and some might even want or retain their own guns, but most appear to demand some sort of gun control; no gun control equals the status quo.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/03/us/minnesota-foiled-school-massacre-john-ladue/

So, do tell us – so long as it is not a gun in every classroom which we already heard about, of course – what is your solution? How would you stop the disenchanted from making bombs, picking up their guns and planning a massacre?

Just a thought, but do the family of mass-killing gunman ever want the weaponry back?

The thing I always find funny is the way that rather than face the problem, or try something different, the consensus is always to maintain the status quo…

But what makes gun-ownership any different from any other human activity where ‘people are dying’?

Guns are unnecessary of course (well, mostly), and the number of deaths in the United States is staggering, but is the attitude to them any different from our own attitude to lots of things that cause unnecessary deaths of innocent people?

If it makes you busy bodies feel any better, the latest round of mass attacks have been stabbings.
The most recent attacker was shot dead by University Police.

Here is one for any twit who cannot figure out why blurting out the name of the killer repeatedly 24/7 is moronic at best.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/03/us/minnesota-foiled-school-massacre-john-ladue/

Good for you.
If you really care do something about it.
Quit your job, move to America, become a citizen and work to change things.
There, that solves it.

Do that instead of being a bunch of blokes in another country who just p!ss and moan (and insult a nation most know nothing about other than what they’re told by others) about stuff they have no bearing on.
Look at it another way…how would you feel about some Yank (or Pole or Syrian) moaning about UK internal politics?

The thing I always find funny is the way that rather than face the problem, or try something different, the consensus is always to maintain the status quo.
People are dying. Innocent people, who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Whether the gun is legal or not doesn’t matter, since most of them will have started off as legal up to the point they were used in a shooting; the problem is that there is no interest in facing up to the problem because someone might suggest taking away their toys or making it more difficult to justify their ownership.

Incidentally, America is the nation that the whole world knows all about because of the information that America puts out about itself – you could try telling Hollywood to tone down on the ‘excitement’ and emphasis the boring and mundane reality, but that isn’t going to happen either.

Look at it another way…how would you feel about some Yank (or Pole or Syrian) moaning about UK internal politics?

Depends how accurate they were.

Secondly it is sad that the un-necessary killing of other citizens is so easily dismissed as “internal politics.”

If you really believe the actions of your murdering brethren and those that are happy to support their “right” to be such are merely “internal politics” it shows how bankrupt the US has become or always was.

I actually do have better things to do, which I hope do, or will improve the lives of others over time. Perhaps that’s why I care..

Good for you.
If you really care do something about it.
Quit your job, move to America, become a citizen and work to change things.
There, that solves it.

Do that instead of being a bunch of blokes in another country who just p!ss and moan (and insult a nation most know nothing about other than what they’re told by others) about stuff they have no bearing on.
Look at it another way…how would you feel about some Yank (or Pole or Syrian) moaning about UK internal politics?

How is the Fourth Avenue Jail in downtown Phoenix rpr? There for the grace of god and all that 😉

As this threads title says, only in America…

Shoot any bad guys, grandfather tells girl, five – leaving her in desert with gun
Man ‘went for drinks and a cheeseburger’ after leaving child alone holding loaded and cocked .45 caliber pistol, say Arizona police

An Arizona grandfather has been arrested and accused of leaving his five-year-old granddaughter alone in the desert with a loaded and cocked .45-calibre handgun and the instruction to “shoot any bad guys”.

Paul Armand Rater, 53, was booked into the Fourth Avenue Jail in downtown Phoenix on suspicion of two counts of felony child abuse and one count of felony child endangerment stemming from the incident on Sunday night.

Deputies said he and the child left their home in Buckeye, about 30 miles (48km) west of Phoenix, in a pickup truck early on Sunday afternoon and that the girl was reported missing four hours later.

She was eventually located in the desert by her mother and an off-duty firefighter. The child was holding the powerful pistol.

“She was given the gun and told to shoot any bahttp://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/03/shoot-any-bad-guys-grand… guys,” said Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio. “I don’t know how a five-year-old can tell a good guy from a bad guy but that’s what she said she was told.“

Rater was later located at a store where he told deputies the vehicle had broken down and that he had left the girl under a tree in the desert because she was complaining she could not walk any more, court records show.

He admitted leaving the girl with his gun “while he went for a few drinks and a cheeseburger”, the sheriff’s office said.

The child was returned to her mother and state child welfare authorities were alerted, the sheriff’s office said.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/03/shoot-any-bad-guys-grandfather-tells-girl-five-leaving-her-in-desert-with-gun

Innit marvellous. Man with pickup takes granddaughter for a ride, breaks down and leaves her behind with a gun and the detail to “shoot any bad guys” so that he can walk several miles to have a drink (or two) and a burger.
And he had a gun. And a pickup. And a granddaughter he forgot about.

Good grief.

Could someone please point me in the direction of this “Well regulated militia”? All I can see is virtually every Tom, Dick & Harry having the right to buy a gun, and far too many of them using it to settle scores with. I’d have much more respect for the gun lobby if only they were at least honest about just liking guns for themselves (each to his own, etc) and accepting continual massacres as a price worth paying, instead of deliberately misinterpreting some archaic 200+ year old law. Can I ask our US forumites what -if anything- they think should be done about the problem; surely the answer can’t be even more of what caused the problem in the first place, ie yet more lethal weapons in circulation?

Oh, and just in case it’s now so routine that no one even cares or notices, here is the latest-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34613033

School massacres are not, it has to be said, solely the preserve of America.

Sweden sword attack: Two killed by masked attacker

A masked man armed with a sword has killed a pupil and a teacher at a school in Sweden.
The suspect, clad in black, apparently posed for photos with students ahead of the attack, in the western town of Trollhattan.
Two further victims, a pupil and a teacher, are seriously injured. The attacker was shot by police and has died of his injuries. He was 21 and resident in Trollhattan, police said.
The king has said Sweden “is in shock”.
Eyewitnesses described chaos at the school, with hundreds of students fleeing from the building screaming.
Police responded to an emergency call reporting an attack in the cafe area of the Kronan school, at around 10:10 local time (08:10 GMT) on Thursday.
Arriving at the scene, they found a dead man – a teacher – near the entrance.
Two male students and another teacher were rushed to hospital. One of the boys, aged 17, has since died of his injuries.
The other pupil, who is 15, and the teacher, a 41-year-old man, are being treated in intensive care for knife injuries. Their condition is described as serious but stable by the hospital.
The attacker was also taken to hospital with gunshot wounds and has since died.
Police have said several knives were used in the attack.
Officers have identified the suspect but not released his name. They have searched the suspect’s home and have found “interesting” things, spokesman Thord Haraldsson told a news conference.
He was not previously known to police, he said.
Asked about possible links to far-right extremism, Mr Haraldsson refused to comment, Swedish radio reports.
Local media have reported that the suspect’s accounts on Facebook and YouTube suggest an interest in Hitler and Nazi Germany. In a photo given to media by a student at the school, he appears to be wearing a black trench coat and a helmet resembling those worn by German troops in World War Two.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]241370[/ATTACH]
Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet published an account (in Swedish) of a girl, who they refer to as Sara, who witnessed the attack.
The girl left her classroom and met two school friends who stood with a masked man holding a bloody knife, she said. He was playing “horrible, Halloween-type” music and did not speak, she said.
Her friends thought it was a joke and wanted to be photographed with the man, so Sara took a photo, Aftonbladet reports.
A teacher came out and asked the man what he was doing, the girl said.
“You’re scaring the children, you can go,” the teacher said.
The man just nodded then stabbed the teacher in the side with his knife, Sara said.
She and her friends ran. The man chased them but they managed to escape.
King Carl Gustav said in a statement that he had learned of the events in Trollhattan “with great dismay and sorrow”.
Sweden’s Prime Minister Stefan Lofven has arrived in the town, and said it was a “black day for Sweden”.
“I think of the victims and their families, students and staff, and the whole of the affected community. No words can describe what they are going through right now. We must ensure that they receive all the support they need,” he said.
Trollhattan is an industrial town in west Sweden, located around 75km (50 miles) north of Gothenburg, the nation’s second largest city.
School attacks are rare in Sweden – with just one incident on record in the past 20 years, in which one pupil was shot dead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34602621

Europe is obviously still in the middle ages – this attack was made using a sword (and probably a knife too). Just one such incident on record in the last 20 years. Is that a miracle, RpR, that the US should aspire to or is it something that Sweden needs to get used to?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State

But it patently isn’t. There are many free states that don’t have ‘a well regulated militia’ and manage perfectly well, so the whole amendment is based on a misconception. And as has been pointed out, wandering around a school, church or cinema with your ‘rightfully borne’ arms killing people at random doesn’t seem to me the actions of a well regulated militia. But hey, what do I know?

Moggy

Just thought. Does the well regulated militia include the overweight rednecks who stood outside recruiting offices drilling holes in the pavement with negligent discharges from their rightfully borne assault rifles until asked to stop by the well regulated military?

Just a few incidents that do not happens in the fantasy land you people seem to live in.
If you live in such an idyllic world for heavens sake stay there, the real world I live in will devour your for breakfast and **** you out by lunchtime.

Dealt with a stabbing followed by a triple matricide followed by the suicide of said mother who was heavily pregnant and the aftermath with the stabbed ex-partner at work a couple of years back. Work being 300 yards away. She lived 100 yards away. Dealt with the aftermath of a machete attack on three youths next door a year before that. (dealing) crack house next door was closed down last month. Son of a neighbour was jailed for an acid attack last week. Next door neighbour is suspected for attempted murder 100 yards away (stabbing). Another neighbour’s friend tried to break in. Faced down a gang of pissed youths that nearly went the wrong way once. Just your normal, average British coastal town…

I do have an air rifle upstairs somewhere though. Somewhere. **** knows where the pellets are. Glad I don’t live in that ****hole scary place you live in though.

Yes the burglar might have taken the valuables and left. Still what price do you put on an XBox?