Operating a Warbird

Originally posted by srpatterson
Kittylitter, are you NEVER happy? Go back and look at your original post in this thread. You accuse warbird owners of stealing up all the good deals and then driving the prices up, all the while begging for handouts.

1. My Sea Fury was one of the Baghdad Furies recovered by Ed Jurist and Dave Tallichet after YEARS of negotiations with the Iraq government. When they finally got the planes out of Iraq it took many more years to get the certification paperwork through the FAA. Any accountant looking at the ROI (return on investment) for a warbird recovery operation would run with fear. You think anyone MADE money on the P-38 Glacier Girl? I can tell you that’s the world’s MOST expensive P-38. If you sold it for twice what the market price is you still would loose money. Not to mention the risk. Just ask Darryl Greenmeyer how much money he lost when the B-29 “Kee Bird” went up in flames in Greenland.

Of course, you haven’t asked them. Instead you just attacked them.

And sponsorship money? Now, there’s a laugh. You think corporations (others than those owned by the warbird pilots) spend ANY money on warbirds? Son, get real cause it just don’t happen. There is NO money in warbirds.

So, build your replica. Get yourself a white scarf, helmet and goggles and paint your name beneath the cockpit. I’m sure you’ll look just swell. After all, that’s what warbirds are all about.

Sorry everybody to rattle on, but this guy really crawled under my skin. No more posts by me on this thread (so go ahead and get your cheap shot, last word in kittylitter).

im not saying your turning profit for flying it but i bet your flying it for free on peoples donations.

and yes planes are sponsored, seen the red bull planes lately?? seen BP signs all over matt dennings boomerang?

Kittylitter, are you NEVER happy? Go back and look at your original post in this thread. You accuse warbird owners of stealing up all the good deals and then driving the prices up, all the while begging for handouts.

1. My Sea Fury was one of the Baghdad Furies recovered by Ed Jurist and Dave Tallichet after YEARS of negotiations with the Iraq government. When they finally got the planes out of Iraq it took many more years to get the certification paperwork through the FAA. Any accountant looking at the ROI (return on investment) for a warbird recovery operation would run with fear. You think anyone MADE money on the P-38 Glacier Girl? I can tell you that’s the world’s MOST expensive P-38. If you sold it for twice what the market price is you still would loose money. Not to mention the risk. Just ask Darryl Greenmeyer how much money he lost when the B-29 “Kee Bird” went up in flames in Greenland.

Of course, you haven’t asked them. Instead you just attacked them.

And sponsorship money? Now, there’s a laugh. You think corporations (others than those owned by the warbird pilots) spend ANY money on warbirds? Son, get real cause it just don’t happen. There is NO money in warbirds.

So, build your replica. Get yourself a white scarf, helmet and goggles and paint your name beneath the cockpit. I’m sure you’ll look just swell. After all, that’s what warbirds are all about.

Sorry everybody to rattle on, but this guy really crawled under my skin. No more posts by me on this thread (so go ahead and get your cheap shot, last word in kittylitter).

Originally posted by srpatterson
I don’t know what Kittyhawks problem is, but if some warbird owner ticked him off at an airshow, well I’m sorry. The pilots and aircrew I know are usually very friendly, but sometimes you get a chap with a chip on his shoulder who comes up to you on the flightline (usually when you are talking to someone else) and asks loudly “Hey, what did THAT cost you?”.

None of your D*#N Business is the answer.

my problem(s)

1)warbird owners who are rich and beg for money so they can enjoy thier toys.

2)people who recover a lot of aircraft and chop them up to make one airworthy.

3)people who recover airframes for profit taking anyone elses chance of restoring it away and making it unaffordable to the general public.

4)the attitudes of these rich eliest warbird owners.

😎

Originally posted by galdri
Well, well.

We have another ‘expert’ ………blah blah blah

try cutting your post down a bit

Originally posted by srpatterson

Kittyhawk, are you really saying that you would rather I donate my 4 warbirds to a museum so they can sit and gather dust rather that fly them in front of hundreds of thousands of people every year?

no im not saying that at all, just dont beg for money so YOU can fly YOUR toys when your obviously a multi millionare.

I hate the term “rich”. According to our Internal Revenue Service (tax collectors) rich is anyone making $150,000 or more per year. Compared to Bill Gates I’m a ditch digger.

Congratulations on your Miles Gemini. I for one enjoy ALL warbirds, trainers and liason as well as fighters and bombers. I’ve never seen a Gemini in person, but it looks like a fun airplane. And there is alot to be said for having a “practical” warbird. Paint it camo and put some roundels on it. As they say on this board over and over again “don’t just stand there, get one up…” (yes, I enjoy BOB too).

The great thing about warbirds is that you don’t have to be a pilot or mechanic to be in the club. I don’t know what Kittyhawks problem is, but if some warbird owner ticked him off at an airshow, well I’m sorry. The pilots and aircrew I know are usually very friendly, but sometimes you get a chap with a chip on his shoulder who comes up to you on the flightline (usually when you are talking to someone else) and asks loudly “Hey, what did THAT cost you?”.

None of your D*#N Business is the answer.

Well, well.

We have another ‘expert’ on the forum. I’ve been reading the postings from Kittyhawk, and I can’t help feeling a bit sorry for him.

Of course old ‘junk’ is expensive, if it can be linked to one particular aircraft via data plate on the remains. All that matters these days is the data plate, the rest of the aircraft has to be built from drawings anyhow! But without the data plate the aircraft will not get registered in some countries, and where it can be registered without a data plate, it will be regarded as replica only even though the work involved in getting it airborne is exactly the same, but the value of a ‘genuine’ warbird is considerably higher than the value of a replica. So, rest assured, there is a reason for the prize tag on the ‘junk’ you mention. If nobody saw a need to buy it for a lot of money, then the prize would be next to nothing. The need is because:

a) data plate is needed to get a project flying
b) data plate is needed to increase the value of the end product.
c) both of the above

If you want to build something like a Spitfire (to name any warbird), without having to buy expensive ‘junk’, it sure can be done. I don’t think it would be too hard to get a set of drawings, as a number of individuals and companies already have a copy. So, start building! The problem is, you can expect to spend approximatly 20.000 hours rebuilding a warbird, because even if you bought some expensive ‘junk’ (and you said so your self) nothing of it is ever going to be up to airworthiness standard. Now let’s think for a minute, 20.000 hours, the average wages for qualified mechanic is about 25 pounds an hour (give or take) and that would make the cost of the rebuild, in wages alone, 500.000 pounds. No materials, no instruments, no engine and no prop. Completed and flying Spitfires sell for about 1.5 million pounds, by the way.

Ok……….you say you are going to do it all your self. If rebuilding it as a hobby project, expect to spend about 500 hours a year on it. That is a very reasonable figure for hobby, two or three hours a day, five days a week. It will take you 40 years to complete the project! If there are four of you working along these lines, it will still take 10 years. And I very much doubt that a group of four will be able to hold out that long, it would have to be one special gang of people. If you are going to do it alone and full time it will take you about 10 years to complete. The whole of that time you would be without income, and if you can do that, you are one of those rich yuppies. And we still have not addressed the question: Are you qualified to do the work? If you are, very good, if not, the end product will never be registered and flying.

Even if you did all the building your self, you would still have to buy expertice. Are you qualified to rebuild a Merlin? I know I would not even think about starting it, and I have been around a lot of things aeronautical since the age of 15 including the rebuild of a couple of normal Lycomings and Continentals. How about the prop? Overhauled one most surely………..let’s say 80.000 pounds, you simply can not carve your own prop for a warbird.

It is does not matter how you look at it Kittyhawk, an original warbird on a shoe-string budged is not going to happen. If you ask me, 1.5 million pounds for a flying warbird is CHEAP! It is less than the cost of rebuilding it. I can not afford it, and juding by your posts here, neither do you. Of course I’m a bit envious of the people who have the means to do this kind of stuff, but unlike you, I’m greatful they are willing to keep history alive for me. If it was not for the people you would like to call ‘rich yuppies’, I’d never seen flying warbirds in my life, and you would probably not know that a Kittyhawk was the RAF service name of one version of the famous P-40.

A very good warbird on your budged would be the L-4. That’s the Piper J3 Cub in Military uniform. If you can not afford a ‘genuine’ L-4 or J3, you can always buy plans from Wagaero and do it your self. It is about 5 years work on hobby basis, and once completed you can paint it to look like the personal mount of Bazooka Charlie, who had, IIRC, seven Panzers to his name flying the Cub over Europe.

I’ve got my own little project, a project it looks like I will be spending at least the next 10 years on. It is a Miles Gemini. It is not a Spitfire, Mustang or B-17. How ever I’m enjoying it immensly, and that is all that matters (when the going is rough, I would like to burn the whole contraption, but don’t tell anybody,will you). A Hurricane would be nice, but I can not afford it.

To get back to Ant’s original question, I think srpatterson has given all the answers above. It is an expensive hobby, no matter what Kittyhawk says.

My hat is off to you srpatterson and all the other warbird operators on the forum, for allowing me to be able to see your aircraft where they belong, in the air! By what can be read through the postings of Kittyhawk, you are a rich yuppie, and thats fine in my book. We need people like you. Without people like you no warbirds would be flying.

All I can say is thanks to those of you who’ve tried to steer this thread back on track.I’d also like to join in the disapproval of Kittyhawk’s attitude,I appreciate the effort and money etc that goes into all this,that’s what this post was all about in the first place after all!Just look at somebody like Eddie Kurdziel and his Firefly;a guy more dedicated to historic aircraft you’d be hard pressed to find, and there seem to be plenty more like him. Look at what Steve has just posted;yes,he gets great pleasure out of flying his SeaFury,but at the end of the day he prefers to share it with others,particularly the younger generation.Surely that can only be applauded??
Many,many thanks for your reply Steve,I just put this post up with a line at the end saying ‘Let’s get back to main subject shall we?” and then I found you already had! 😀
I’ll digest the facts and figures and come up with something intelligent to say tomorrow after a night’s sleep,thanks again for the reply. 🙂

Don’t worry James, we’ll deck you out like a real fighter pilot. BTW, most airshows now want everyone flying in nomex (suit and gloves) as well as boots and helmet.

Costs of warbirds…let’s see. Buying a warbird is just the beginning. First, insurance.

Hull and Liability on the Sea Fury, is $18K/year for $500,000 coverage. That’s with a 10% deductible and $1 mil. liability (the most you can get). Liability only is about $5000. The L-39 and MiG-17F cost about the same for half the coverage. Too many civilian jet accidents. I self insure the jets, but you have to carry liability to attend airshows. Every year insurance goes up and coverage goes down. This will kill warbird flying soon if something isn’t done. In the US we are hopeful that the new Experimental Type Rating, Flight Reviews in type every 2 years, and the new emphasis on currency and training will help. The T-6 isn’t too bad, about like a complex 4 place retract (Bonanza or Cessna 210).

Maintenance isn’t too bad on the jets, which is why we fly them. Fuel burn is the issue, anywhere from 200 gph on average for the L-39 to twice that for the MiG (if you don’t get in the afterburner too much).

The Wright 3350 in the Sea Fury is now running about $80-$100K for overhaul, so you hope that doesn’t come up very often. There is always maintenance to do, kind of like an old car. Only, where an alternator might cost you $300 for a car, just add another zero at the end and you start to see what keeping a warbird in the air is going to run. I recently put new brakes on the L-39 for $3800.

Of course you are going to need a hanger, tools, and someone to work on the plane. I have some wonderful people who help me out and don’t charge nearly what they should (don’t tell, though).

Every warbird pilot I know does it because they love it. It is funny when we get together, because we’re all basically type A personalities. Mostly business owners, self made men. About 50% ex-military. More daughters than sons (I don’t know why, but it’s true). We all balance flying with family (I’ve got a hall pass to fly this weekend sort of thing). Of course, you do get the occasional screwball daredevil warbird pilot (I’ve met one). Mother nature has a cruel way of dealing with them. I’ve also lost friends for being sloppy and careless. You try to learn from those examples. That’s why we tend to fly with people we know (and trust).

When I bought my first warbird (a T-28) the guy told me I would make a hundred new friends. Just add another zero to that and you’ll come close.

Cheers, and thanks for the support…

Steve Patterson

Thanks for posting Steve,
To go back to Ant’s original question, the costs… If you’d rather not post figures, give us a few comments or parameters? What’s surprisingly cheap, as well as the stunningly expensive? Are you a net gainer or looser at the years end? And so on…
Cheers

PS Looks like you are booked 😉 Do I bring my own headgear?

Wow, you boys have been having fun with this one.

Kittyhawk, are you really saying that you would rather I donate my 4 warbirds to a museum so they can sit and gather dust rather that fly them in front of hundreds of thousands of people every year?

While I will agree with you that some warbirds are too valuable to continue to fly (Black 6, the Bf 109 comes to mind) I would argue that these planes represent living history and should be displayed to the public as long as possible.

I don’t know how many warbird owners you know, but your generalization that all warbird owners are “rich yuppies” is dribble. For instance, from time to time I get to fly with Maj. Gen. Bill Anders USAF ret. Bill was the CEO of General Dynamics, former head of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, US Ambassador to Denmark and the LM pilot on Apollo 8 (the first guys around the moon). Whatever you do, don’t call the General a yuppie.

The sad fact is that Gen. Anders, and me and a bunch of other guys do this for you, much to the displeasure of our accountants. Don’t appreciate our efforts? Well, stay at home during the next airshow. Last year at Oshkosh I spent about 8 hours a day talking to people about warbirds. Most are very nice and ask smart questions, some just hop up on your airplane like they own it. Regardless, it’s all worth it when you see some 10 year old kid light up after you put him in the cockpit and stick a helmet on his head. Then you know that long after I’m gone the next generation will be preserving these airplanes from people like you.

Cheers,

Steve Patterson

PS I’m often asked if I sell rides. The answer is “no”, although I do donate rides for charity. Saying that it is a wonderful thing to take someone up like JDK that really appreciates what we do, because the only thing more fun than flying a warbird is sharing the experience with a friend.

Thanks Kittyhawk,

I try and help you call me an idiot. Why? That’s your privilage. Sad.

Last time I looked, there was a roo and emu on my passport; I’d like you to know that my family have fought to defend Australia AND Britain; worked in manufacturing aircraft at CAC. So you are wrong about me being a ‘typical pom’. If you wish to represent Australia in this way, may I ask you not to? Richard Hourigan, Judy Pay, the RAAF Museum, Moorabbin Air Museum and myself, to name just a few can do without your efforts at international understanding, so far.

You are entitled to your opinion. I to mine. We are here to debate, it can be fun, funny, serious or a pi$$take; – as Moggy said it’s like a flying club bar; but there’s no point in winging or bleeding heart everywhere; no-one is going to be interested. If you wish to present a constructed argument, great. If you want to take the rip, fine. If you want to go on about how unfair the world is, you’ll be in a quickly expanding cone of silence. It is unfair. Lots of people have more money than you or me. Deal with it. Make some. You are (apparently) in the lucky country, mate. Have a fair go, just don’t get caught like Bondie. OK?

If you don’t like it here, may I sugest you leave then? By all means stay, but please, play nicely if you do. If you can’t share your toys, don’t criticise others for doing so or not doing so – it’s a bit hypocritical.

You may or may not note the lack of personal insults. Please bother to note that.

Cheers

point is you shouldnt donate to these rich beggers, if its thier personal plane and they can do what they want with it then they shouldnt need your money or time.

he sounds like a very smart bloke, better then your dribble anyway:rolleyes:

No!

If it wasn’t for the rich yuppies owning and wrecking the things then they would be in a museum where they belong, being protected and maintained.

If they are rich enough to buy and fly them then they should have enough money to dontate them to history.

You want to make them out to be some kind of godsend to the aviation community but in reality they are simply rich little boys with toys they do not deserve.

And now they want OUR money?!? How ironic.

Screw that. You can worship them if you want to but do not diss me because I do not agree with your rosy outlook on historical plane ownership for recreation reasons.

Originally posted by JDK
Hi Kittyhawk,

There’s a lot to be gained in these forums, if you give and take. As regards a (potential) ride in a warbird, I give something, I get something. No money changes hands. No one is forced to do anything, and everyone gets a smile out of the day. Sorry if you can see a negative there – as you are up on your research, you’ll know which Sea Fury, and why your rich thieves argument doesn’t stand up. Have a look fo ‘Sea Fury refs’ if you’d like more info.

As regards ‘tax dollars’ Depreciaton from W.W.II means that as taxpayers items warbirds are worthless – as we know, the governments of the day couldn’t melt them fast enough.

Still trying to think of anyone who got rich by recovering warbirds.

Still trying to think of anyone who got rich trading warbirds in the last 30 odd years.

Frankly, sticking it in a bank gets a better rate of interest!

You’ve accused an entire industry and thousands of people of ‘arrogance’ yet you are happy to post and say you don’t care about other’s opinions – that’s a definition of arrogance.

My spelling is a bit ropey, and I don’t throw stones on that score here, but you’ll come accross better with some punctuation and a bit more care – my name here is JDK, not jdk, small, but my own, please treat it with care.

A constructive suggestion. Cool off, re-register, and come back with a view to sharing – you’ll have a great time. Cary on as you are, and you’ll be shunned, which would be a pity; as you obviously care a lot!

Cheers

why on earth would i re-register? my opinions have not changed (except that i think your an idiot). you remind me of a typical pom :rolleyes:

Originally posted by trumper
:confused: Hey Kittyhawk,you sound just like someone called Gonzo on this thread http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=435102392 .
He seems to have something against “yuppie” warbird owners the same as you.:rolleyes:

not me:confused:

although i couldnt have said it better myself

If it was the LAST ONE then why was it being flown in the first place?!?

Why is it that rich little yuppies get to fly and own these rare birds and when they wreck the things they proclaim it’s historical value and how us poor working class slobs should all pitch-in to fix the thing.

Am I the only one here who sees this?

I say let the rich ******* that flew it pay for it. And then sentence him to prison for destroying a national treasure!

🙂

Back to Ant’s question.

Warbird operating costs – it occours to me a number are outside the owner’s control, and also high – insurance and fuel. Maintainance can be adjusted and negotiated, but trained core staff are hard to come by, even if not too expensive, relatively speaking; and we know there’s a lot of unpaid or low paid volunteers making a difference in there.

Parts – that’s the rub. Taking Kittyhawk’s point, even junk fetches a big price tag if it’s the right junk with the right provenance, and new build parts cost the earth, even when you can get them.

I’ll stick to running my old car for the moment!

Anyone coming up with any numbers?

Cheers

Hi Kittyhawk,

There’s a lot to be gained in these forums, if you give and take. As regards a (potential) ride in a warbird, I give something, I get something. No money changes hands. No one is forced to do anything, and everyone gets a smile out of the day. Sorry if you can see a negative there – as you are up on your research, you’ll know which Sea Fury, and why your rich thieves argument doesn’t stand up. Have a look fo ‘Sea Fury refs’ if you’d like more info.

As regards ‘tax dollars’ Depreciaton from W.W.II means that as taxpayers items warbirds are worthless – as we know, the governments of the day couldn’t melt them fast enough.

Still trying to think of anyone who got rich by recovering warbirds.

Still trying to think of anyone who got rich trading warbirds in the last 30 odd years.

Frankly, sticking it in a bank gets a better rate of interest!

You’ve accused an entire industry and thousands of people of ‘arrogance’ yet you are happy to post and say you don’t care about other’s opinions – that’s a definition of arrogance.

My spelling is a bit ropey, and I don’t throw stones on that score here, but you’ll come accross better with some punctuation and a bit more care – my name here is JDK, not jdk, small, but my own, please treat it with care.

A constructive suggestion. Cool off, re-register, and come back with a view to sharing – you’ll have a great time. Cary on as you are, and you’ll be shunned, which would be a pity; as you obviously care a lot!

Cheers

:confused: Hey Kittyhawk,you sound just like someone called Gonzo on this thread http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=435102392 .
He seems to have something against “yuppie” warbird owners the same as you.:rolleyes:

Build a replica, K-hawk. I am!