Operation African Star – Hauptmann Hans-Joachim Marseille

If JDK wants to read my view of Marseille, he will have to await publication of the book – should we find the crash site, that is. Of course we are able to look for it simply because we can, without having to justify why to anyone, let us not forget. It is a pity, however, that General Galland is no longer with us, for he described Marseille as ‘the virtuoso of all fighter pilots’. Did JDK challenge the great General on his statement; somehow I doubt it. JDK may rest assured, however, that whatever I write in my books is supported by firm evidence and analysis, as will any reference, in due course, to Marseille.

Regarding hero worshipping JEJ, not so – clearly you have not read either my ‘Johnnie Jophnson: Spitfire Top Gun’ Parts One or Two. In the latter’s foreword, Chris Johnson, Johnnie’s son, commends my approach for also including the negatives. Lady Bader has said similar regarding my published work in respect of DB, and as a former police detective of 22 years experience I am pretty conversant, it is fair to say, with presenting facts impartially. My view is that, like writing circumstances for Court, all of the evience must be presented for the Court, or in this case the reader, to make up his or her own mind. Anyone remotely familiar with my published work would agree that this is how my work is presented. On a personal level, as a friend I loved Johnnie and knew him well; I miss him still. But he knew that whatever I wrote about him would be warts and all, which is as it should be.

I can’t agree which what I consider to be a rude remark about keeping things on topic. This is a thread with a specific title ‘Operation African Star’; it is not ‘Was Marseille or Snoopy the best fighter pilot’ (frankly I don’t really care who was when it comes down to it!). If you wish to debate that then I think that there should be a new thread. You are right, I have my own web site – and do you know what? I decided against having a forum on it because I wanted to avoid exactly this. As I have said on the Bader thread, I have not involved myself in forums before, and only visited this one because I was personally involved with the Bader thread. The behaviour of many, however, leaves a great deal to be desired, and frankly who needs the hassle? I have avoided forums for this reason, and will resume my previous stance all round. Too much research to do, too many projects ongoing, no time to waste.

It seems to me that some people need to review why they use forums. Surely they are a place for the exchanging of information and ideas, not the provocative argument that certain members clearly revel in (and I can predict with certainty which member will follow up first with a smart response to this post!).

Should anyone be interested in an update re Operation African Star, look on my web site in about a month’s time. www.DilipSarkarMBE.co.uk. I can be emailed at [email]info@dilipsarkarmbe.co.uk[/email].

Over and out.

Dilip Sarkar MBE FRHistS

You have made some good points Dilip, however, you are on a public forum so you have to take the good with the bad. You have used this forum for your own ‘provactive argument’ though, as well as self publicity. The choice is yours to come or go but don’t moan when you are attacked.

Best Wishes.
Robert.

Good luck with the Hunt for the bit’s all.

Sound’s like an interesting trip.

Fair enough Dilip, ppl need yet another greatest ace thread for those debates 🙂
Starts to look like B-grade soapboxing at best…

If JDK wants to read my view of Marseille, he will have to await publication of the book – should we find the crash site, that is. Of course we are able to look for it simply because we can, without having to justify why to anyone, let us not forget. It is a pity, however, that General Galland is no longer with us, for he described Marseille as ‘the virtuoso of all fighter pilots’. Did JDK challenge the great General on his statement; somehow I doubt it. JDK may rest assured, however, that whatever I write in my books is supported by firm evidence and analysis, as will any reference, in due course, to Marseille.

Regarding hero worshipping JEJ, not so – clearly you have not read either my ‘Johnnie Jophnson: Spitfire Top Gun’ Parts One or Two. In the latter’s foreword, Chris Johnson, Johnnie’s son, commends my approach for also including the negatives. Lady Bader has said similar regarding my published work in respect of DB, and as a former police detective of 22 years experience I am pretty conversant, it is fair to say, with presenting facts impartially. My view is that, like writing circumstances for Court, all of the evience must be presented for the Court, or in this case the reader, to make up his or her own mind. Anyone remotely familiar with my published work would agree that this is how my work is presented. On a personal level, as a friend I loved Johnnie and knew him well; I miss him still. But he knew that whatever I wrote about him would be warts and all, which is as it should be.

I can’t agree which what I consider to be a rude remark about keeping things on topic. This is a thread with a specific title ‘Operation African Star’; it is not ‘Was Marseille or Snoopy the best fighter pilot’ (frankly I don’t really care who was when it comes down to it!). If you wish to debate that then I think that there should be a new thread. You are right, I have my own web site – and do you know what? I decided against having a forum on it because I wanted to avoid exactly this. As I have said on the Bader thread, I have not involved myself in forums before, and only visited this one because I was personally involved with the Bader thread. The behaviour of many, however, leaves a great deal to be desired, and frankly who needs the hassle? I have avoided forums for this reason, and will resume my previous stance all round. Too much research to do, too many projects ongoing, no time to waste.

It seems to me that some people need to review why they use forums. Surely they are a place for the exchanging of information and ideas, not the provocative argument that certain members clearly revel in (and I can predict with certainty which member will follow up first with a smart response to this post!).

Should anyone be interested in an update re Operation African Star, look on my web site in about a month’s time. www.DilipSarkarMBE.co.uk. I can be emailed at [email]info@dilipsarkarmbe.co.uk[/email].

Over and out.

Dilip Sarkar MBE FRHistS

Yes Marseille was a marksman..so was Hartman in the first part till he took to getting in close.So were many other pilots on all sides.Hartman acheived most of his kills in the East due to the high number of opponents.These opponents were probably considered substandard in aircraft types,pilot skills and tactics.But on the other hand Marseille,s opponents were skilled ex BoB pilots for the most part plus the opposing sides were fairley evenly matched in regard to aircraft type.Tactically the luftwaffe continued with the advantages that were taken away from them in England to great success.Propaganda played a big part but Hans was the atypical fighter pilot.Skilled,outlandish,a playboy if you will with little regard to authority.A foe highly regarded on both sides of the fence.But the first pilot to be propped up as the greatest was Moelders.He was onto becoming the best but as again he didn,t survive.

P.S. If anyone want to keep the subject ‘on topic’, get your own website – this is a forum where everyone is able to contributor, and thus cat herding is more rewarding. That’s the way it is.

Now THAT is spot on.

I fail to see how a judgement of best can be reached at all. Most, yes, best? No.

Take a pilot and place him down the southeast during the battle and he may reach a massive score or be killed first time up. Place him in the west and he may get a decent score with more chance of surviving (better odds). Stick him up in Scotland and he lilkely won’t get a kill and will be home for tea. Is our first pilot better?

I have never studied Marseille so can’t contribute to that part of the discussion.

…There is obviously something very special about Marseille…

No problem with that, I’d agree. And for the record, I don’t claim to know the details or accuracy of the accounts of Marseille’s career.

Within set parameters – speed of kills, demonstrated skill, perhaps, I’m sure he could rightly be set as a No.1 for that specific context. As a ‘potentially the greatest ace ever’ I’ve no quarrel with either. However, the fact that the Luftwaffe (and no other air force, ever) managed to list twenty-nine other aces with higher kill counts indicates that they weren’t exactly short of talent, or luck, or skill as you wish to cut it.

However talking of analysis:

Hauptmann Hans-Joachim Marseille’s …possibly the greatest fighter pilot this world has ever known.

He was NOT the ‘greatest’, and putting a weasel ‘possibly’ in front does you no good either. He either was or he wasn’t. Support the argument, or change it, don’t use advertisingspeak. Although no-one would argue he was among the greatest fighter pilots ever – endless words have been written about who was the greatest, and I don’t propose to add to them – why set yourself up for certain failure? By any measure there have been greater fighter pilots, but that does not detract from his achievement as much as trying to force him to a pinnacle that he doesn’t inhabit. Just say ‘among…’ or ‘one of the greatest ever’. No one would argue with that.

2. Can you please provide evidence to support your claim that Marseille was not the greatest fighter pilot of WW2? His comparatively short combat record suggests to me that had he survived the war his ultimate score would have been enormous. The tactic he perfected of accurately firing in any attitude was superb, as was his high speed intrusion into the enemy’s defensive circle. If you want to be pedantic, take out my ‘possibly’, because I believe Marseille was the greastest.

No, no, burden of proof lies with you. 😀 Your claim, not mine, I was just pointing out you were over egging it. Don’t worry, if you want to stick with that view, better people than I will correct you.

James – all noted. Having studied WW2 fighter pilots for a lifetime I have good reason for holding Marseille in such high esteem, his tactic was exceptional, unique even, and to me that particular innovation marks him out as the best. My opinion may well be wrong, but it is an informed one and, indeed, one to which I am entitled! I have no intention of getting drawn into splitting hairs over who was or wasn’t the best, as there are as many differing views as candidates; in any case, if you want to get into that please start another and specific thread – this one concerns our African Star project.

In short, a precise statement that HJM was ‘possibly the greatest’, without any qualified evidence (statements of potential, while interesting only prove that same potential) and a refusal to support that, an odd desire to up the ante with ‘remove possibly’, all very stylish and impressive, but hardly history – fact, analysis and logic – regarded as irrelevant in favour of ‘an informed opinion’, and a refusal (twice) to support the statement. As for ‘a lifetimes study’. Well done, but duration is not the measure of achievement; ity’s the results that count, and Dilip’s chalked up may impressive results, but each and every statement needs to bve able to stand a veracity analysis.

It’s just like police work – one fudged piece of evidence, and the case collapses. More importantly, a good police career can go streight down the tube – and quite right too.

I have the utmost respect for the work that Dilip’s done – detailed, analytic and painstaking, and the books published have unarguably added to the worthwhile documentation in the field; I am an admirer. Woking closely with these heroes, such as JEJ is also admirable but (you knew that was coming… 😉 ) a good historian is someone who recognises the need to stand back from that all-too-understandable and excusable hero worship and question that hero’s status; without shade there is no contrast for light; biographies that only take the subjects side are hagiographies, and partial and thus devalue their own content.

A visit to N Africa to recover any lose artefacts for museums and to see what we can find is laudable; a fun jaunt rewarding, but expensive hot and hard work. But without an objective of expecting to learn, a theory to test, explode or ‘prove’, it’s a relic hunt in the religious sense – nothing wrong with that, but it’s not history, it’s veneration and chasing a piece ‘of the one true cross’. Go for it, you have my support, but don’t confuse the motives.

There’s been some discussion over qualifications to practice forms of archaeology in the Bader thread; a qualification is one means to systematise methodology and learning – you don’t have to be qualified to do world changing work in a field. However if you refuse to work within the discipline’s basic requirements, then that work cannot be regarded as a worthwhile contribution to that field – it is compromised by personal prejudices and may well spoil the resources for others more prepared to accept the discipline’s requirements.

* * * *

Fair enough (or not, if you disagree.) I would like Dilip to state why he believes that Hans-Joachim Marseille was the greatest fighter pilot this world has ever known, and to provide evidence and data and analysis from his informed opinion that this is so. I’d like him to support that thesis, under analytic discussion on this forum by those able to provide a factually based question to that.

Why? Firstly because that’s what this forum’s about – discussion, learning. Secondly, because if Dilip puts such an unsupported statement in a book it should get a review that points that out, nice and clear and Dilip doesn’t get a right of reply there.

It’s been an excellent discussion as long as no-one gets onto their dignity or sets others on pedestals – let’s keep it that way.

Regards,

P.S. If anyone want to keep the subject ‘on topic’, get your own website – this is a forum where everyone is able to contributor, and thus cat herding is more rewarding. That’s the way it is.

..I’m with JDK on this one ..while undoubtedly a skilled pilot and something of a marksman

I agree, certainley his marksmanship put him up with Rall in that respect, many other Experten citing Rall as being the best angle-off deflection shot in the entire Luftwaffe.

However, as for best, I’d favour looking at overall record rather than just focusing on one aspect, and for that reason, for 20 odd years I’ve always found it hard to argue against Heinz Bar’s record putting him at the top of the pile.

Dilip,

..I’m with JDK on this one ..while undoubtedly a skilled pilot and something of a marksman, I wonder how much of Marseille’s ‘fame’ was down to the German propaganda machine which went into overdrive as the Axis were thrown out of the desert .. while many – like yourself – have undoubtedly been fascinated by Marseille, I also wonder how many are aware that virtually all we ‘know’ about Marseille originates from Fritz Dettmann’s 1944 biography ‘Mein Freund Marseille’ – ‘My Friend Marseille’ …Dettmann was a PK – Propaganda Kompanie – war reporter – his book’s gushing style makes Toliver’s ‘Blond Knight’ look like a serious piece of historical research..Kurowski’s Schiffer bio uncritically regurgitates large portions of Dettman’s text…including the ‘seventeen in a day’ account – the ‘details’ of this story originated from his best friend Stahlschmidt who wrote a letter home the same evening – no wonder one or two have challenged it down the years !! …you should try and check out this volume ..

An excellent contribution, for which many thanks. I am sure that you are right, but having corresponded with Edu Neumann some years ago I was extremely impressed with the high regard in which he and other JG 27 survivors held Marseille. There is obviously something very special about Marseille, quite what I don’t know but definately above and beyond propaganda. Perhaps along this journey we can find out more.

I think with Marseille, and speaking personally, the fascination is not just in the man, but in the whole story of JG 27 operating in the desert, and, indeed, North Africa and the desert itself is equally alluring….

My opinion may well be wrong, but it is an informed one and, indeed, one to which I am entitled!

Dilip,

..I’m with JDK on this one ..while undoubtedly a skilled pilot and something of a marksman, I wonder how much of Marseille’s ‘fame’ was down to the German propaganda machine which went into overdrive as the Axis were thrown out of the desert .. while many – like yourself – have undoubtedly been fascinated by Marseille, I also wonder how many are aware that virtually all we ‘know’ about Marseille originates from Fritz Dettmann’s 1944 biography ‘Mein Freund Marseille’ – ‘My Friend Marseille’ …Dettmann was a PK – Propaganda Kompanie – war reporter – his book’s gushing style makes Toliver’s ‘Blond Knight’ look like a serious piece of historical research..Kurowski’s Schiffer bio uncritically regurgitates large portions of Dettman’s text…including the ‘seventeen in a day’ account – the ‘details’ of this story originated from his best friend Stahlschmidt who wrote a letter home the same evening – no wonder one or two have challenged it down the years !! …you should try and check out this volume ..

Yes the report HJM was flying the aircraft when it sustained damage is in the LW Quatermaster reports.

Dave

Firebird I take my hat off to you as I couldn’t find a pic on line, where was that photo?

To be honest, the 45 secs was a bit misleading. 😮
It did take me 45 secs to find it, that’s true, but only because I remembered it being on a site I bookmarked about a year ago, after finding the site whilst doing a bit of research on Hans Philipp.

See here

Incidentally, regarding aircraft HJM flew, I remember years ago during the restoration of the now Ed Russell owned airworthy Emil, that there were suggestions Marseille had actually flown this machine during his training.
Was this ever 100% established…???

On eBay :

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Luftwaffes-Hans-Joachim-Marseille-signed-photograph_W0QQitemZ190029090795QQihZ009QQcategoryZ4727QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I’m not the seller, and I don’t know if it’s a common photo or not, but it looks good !

Andy.

Truthspeaker,

Is this the DVD?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hans-Joachim-Marseille-star-NEW-DVD_W0QQitemZ160024672291QQihZ006QQcategoryZ2295QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Mike

Yes, that’s the one. Features original newsreel footage of Marseille and interviews with JG 27 vets in 1989.

Firebird I take my hat off to you as I couldn’t find a pic on line, where was that photo?

Cheers

Thanks Firebird, will have a search for more info.

Good lookin DVD, pricey for 47 mins tho…..

Truthspeaker,

Is this the DVD?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hans-Joachim-Marseille-star-NEW-DVD_W0QQitemZ160024672291QQihZ006QQcategoryZ2295QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Mike

Haven’t found any on line pix,

Took about 45 secs to find one…… 😉

Haven’t found any on line pix, but there are pix in the Schiffer book by Franz Kurowski. Also, there is an excellent DVD about Marseille, produced by Oracle DVD Video, which includes footage of Edu Neumann and the other JG 27 vets at the rededication service in 1989. Well worth watching, I got my copy from ebay.

Hi Marty

In full agreement regarding the rising star, and reasons why he was held in such high esteem.

The Marseille Pyramid is a known site, i.e. where his body fell, but not the 109’s crash site.

Cheers

Dilip

Alles klar 🙂
Are there online pics available of this Pyramid?

Firebird ; You get my vote 😎 ……. shame that (M.T.S.J) Pattle’s unselfish endeavours often get overlooked due to his Sqdns records going ‘missing’ (burnt/whatever) during the Greek debacle.

For those who fuss & fret over ‘scores’, the glad news is most folk’s are becoming aware that J.E.J. ain’t quite the pinnacle, even if he was a good pilot. Pattle deserves top-dog status.

I don’t write books & neither would I be moved to apologise (re; above).

Personally, I’d rather hear tales related regarding ‘Joe Average’ during the war

Reminds me of a late-teenage kid (very knowlegable on W.W.II aviation), who is a member of the I.P.M.S. club that I used to frequent (B.4 moving).
He would ONLY build a/c flown by Aces… & not show any interest otherwise.

Ironic, as his Grandad’s brother was one of the top (& most famous) R.A.F pilots during W.W.II (Ging’ Lacey).

Have to agree though, Marseilles was obviously exceptional….. so this will interest all the Luftwaffe fiends :diablo: (sorry, fans), of which there are many.

You are absolutely right that tales of the unsung heroes are of greater interest, as my published record indicates. Having known Johnnie Johnson and many of his pilots well, and studied his wartime flying in great detail, I fear, however, that you do him an injustice. Forget all the rubbish about scores, Johnnie, if you knew him, had a massive personality and charisma, and was, undoubtedly, Wing Leader par excellence. Who was the greatest, and what rule of thimb is applied to decide this is, I feel, very much a personal thing. Anyway, as I have said before, this thread is not a debate about this but a message board for ‘Operation African Star’.

You certainly don’t need to apologise – the person that did so previously had got even the basic facts – like the ID of the pilot I was talking about – completely wrong, and that is why he apologised. No-one has to apologise for hhaving an opinion – even if it is wrong!

One thing, though. It is only the stories of famous pilots which attracts the interest of the popular press. Frustrating though this often is, at least they will cover stories, such as the search for Bader’s Spitfire and Marseille’s 109, which all helps keep the memory alive and in the public imagfination.