Options for MPA

I very much suspect that they will go for a 4 engined aircraft and it will be cheap, hence a C-130 derivative being most likely.

4 engines are no longer necessary or even desirable. Might have been back in the 1950s-60s when experience with turboprops was limited, but history has shown that turboprops are extremely reliable. AFAIK, only one of the ~120 Atlantic/Atlantiques was lost due to engine failure.

A C-130 will cost a lot more for this role than any of the two-engined options (Atlantique, C-295, ATR-72). The only way this would make sense would be to rerole RAF C130Js, since they may have lots of “free” airframe hours remaining (the limiting fatigue constraint likely being landing cycles/low altitude tactical ops, neither of which is a big deal for an ASW aircraft).

I very much suspect that they will go for a 4 engined aircraft and it will be cheap, hence a C-130 derivative being most likely.

I’m curious as to which Scavenger/Solomon air vehicle you are referring to here and which roles it would not be capable of achieving?.

No absolute need for MPA’s in de-lousing the Faslane approaches….

Merlin, ideally a hunting pair, is quite up to the task of rattling unfriendly sub skippers and de-lousing is about as good as ASW training, against fleet boats, gets these days. Too good a chance to pass up for the Merlin lads.

Sorry Jonesy I was interpreting the report referenced in the article Fedaykin’s post, where they said “In particular, the system has been touted as a means to take on some of the maritime surveillance tasks left unmet by the cancellation of the Nimrod MRA4 program”, which to me means that there are some maritime surveillance tasks that Scavenger could not handle.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/awst/2011/04/25/AW_04_25_2011_p33-314023.xml&headline=Britain%20Examines%20UAS%20Procurement%20Approach

I get that Merlin is the dog’s boll*cks, and the T23 is cutting edge ASW frigate, but is it really the best combo? Would it not be better to build a specialist ASW picket, with a smaller crew, and no secondary capabilities that operates in UK waters to screen the “boomers” as they exit Faslane, to free up the T23 for all the other roles we need it for?

The best option IMHO is to lease 6-8 French Atlantique 2s in exchange for a French lease of the RAF’s new A330 tankers. That’s a fair deal that would delay capital expenditures on both sides, while also offering lower hourly costs than other legacy alternatives (S-3 Viking, Nimrod – had it been kept, C-135 etc).

The 6-8 Atlantiques would come out of the 12 Atlantiques that are stored as maintenance spares. The fleet (including all but 4 of the spares) is being incrementally modernized to stay in service until 2030, with improved sonobuoy and radar processing, new FLIR/TV sensor, better self-protection suite etc.

The Vikings are sitting in the desert, AFAIK.

Did anyone say MQ-4C?

What Fedaykin says above is reasonable.

I think it’s three areas:

— Coastal/EEZ MPA & Policing: Not all the way to Cape Farewell, but still a huge area to cover (and beware those Chinese SSN!). An airliner derivate could be quite useful (A319 MPA), augmented by UAV and surface units. And I’m almost tempted to say get some Berievs :-D. Operated by the FAA.

— Expeditionary Combat MPA: Ideally carrier capable and jet powered. Oh where have the Vikings gone. But even a Turbo Tracker would do. Otherwise AW101 from ships, MQ-4C from far away land bases, a A319 MPA to beef up the presence during interesting times. Logically run by the FAA. I was also wondering some time ago how far a UAV’d carrier air wing could actually go; not now, but in 2020/2025+. Should be given serious thought to what extent MPA has to be manned.

— Coastal/EEZ SAR: Can be done by large helicopters. Operated by the Coast Guard (govt or commercial doesn’t matter).

Its not that uncommon for subs to come snooping….if I make the observation that the P-3 didnt find the Russian on its own, but, was steered in….does that illustrate why the P-3 wasn’t really a vital part of the equation?. A Merlin handy would have been equally effective in task…..perhaps more so.

The RN certainly think it is a useful capability as they have bothered to put together a working group to explore options.

Lot of scope in ‘exploring options’ though. Here’s hoping, for once, they let the glaringly obvious slap them in the face!. Lets also hope someone cottons on to the Project Dabinett/Solomon work and tries to get a lever off that. Easy sale option for it, of course, is that a good way of being free of the light-blue mafia is to dispense with the dependence on pilots!.

Maybe Jonesy but I think the capability is useful even a twin turboprop version. Also recent scares about snooping Russian subs and having to borrow US P3 can’t be ignored.

The RN certainly think it is a useful capability as they have bothered to put together a working group to explore options.

Anyway its all down to cash and I want the carriers more…

NoCuts

the fact that Scavenger will not be able to fill all our maritime patrol requirements

I’m curious as to which Scavenger/Solomon air vehicle you are referring to here and which roles it would not be capable of achieving?.

Fed,

Secondly that brings us to the ASW we do now (yes we do it now!), that is protecting the bombers as they leave Faslane for deterrent patrol. Thats brown water ASW and can be done perfectly well with a twin engine turboprop type like the C295 MPA or ATR 72 ASW (as we already know the former would be my choice).

No absolute need for MPA’s in de-lousing the Faslane approaches. We can, and do, do that with other assets far more suited to the task of high-persistence detection of discrete acoustic targets anyway. The Nimrods were great for chasing down contacts identified by others, but, all they were were platforms to keep the opposition ‘heads down’ and to rattle the occaisional cage.

Merlin, ideally a hunting pair, is quite up to the task of rattling unfriendly sub skippers and de-lousing is about as good as ASW training, against fleet boats, gets these days. Too good a chance to pass up for the Merlin lads.

Blue water ASW is likewise. The MPA was always the prosecute-to-shoot platform not the search asset. If you have the wide area search asset in the first place its not hard to cue in an alternate shooter. There is no real disparity between the threat level and currently arrayed ASW capacity in the Atlantic anyway so the loss of land-based airborne ASW is of little consequence. Certainly £1bn’s worth of twin-turboprop ‘Nimrod-when-I-grow-up’ platforms would only be a token addition to that capacity at best.

Given that ASW is a diminished capability set in our MPA requirement it is very difficult to see what mission roles would be beyond even current gen MALE UAV’s. BAE had in its, somewhat nebulous, spiral 2 development of Mantis conceptual MR capability with appropriate radar and sensor fits and there is obvious interest in the MALE UAV as an MR platform in Dabinett/Solomon and its not hard to see why.

Just 18 Searchwater-equipped Mantis/Reaper sized air vehicles split between, say, Lossie, Waddo and Gib would guarantee seamless, redundant, 24hr barrier detection and identification of every surface vessel in the northern and eastern approaches to the UK plus anything coming north from the Med or Biscay – with the simultaneous ability to put a permanent track a limited number of contacts-of-interest. Thats the capability we want to have….not some attempt to do the Nimrod job on a shoestring with a few cheap t/props.

As far as I am aware SAR top cover is more about protecting/helping the rescue helicopters if their engines decide to quit! Also a jet can get out to the rescue area quicker and assess the situation. Finally whilst modern technology like SATCOMS, GPS and EPIRBS are great that doesn’t make them 100% reliable! (Especially those on civilian yachts)

Agree that C295s operated by the Navy is the way to go. BTW, C295s already have an AAR probe option:

Not clear about the SAR coordination role. In the past, comms relay was a big part of this, but has SATCOM aboard the helicopter not done away with the need for this? Likewise GPS and/or EPIRBs and the like mean that the position of the people or vessels in distress are known, so a search is rarely required. What is topcover for?

Well that is the question! In the end the RAF operating maritime patrol/ASW aircraft is a historic holdover from Coastal command days. Actually the origins of that are even earlier as the navy operated patrol aircraft from 1909 until 1918 and the formation of the RAF. It wasn’t until 1939 that the admiralty got control back of the aircraft that operated from carriers with the RAF retaining the maritime patrol tasking.

In respect of your question I think we need to have a careful think about what we need to do.

Firstly whilst I HATE the term in many ways having an ASW aircraft that can fly to the middle of the Atlantic is a bit of a cold war relic (grrrr it makes me twitch even writing it out!). We are not really going to be fighting a war against the Russians any time soon protecting merchant ships as they race across the Atlantic to resupply forces in Europe as they fight against Warsaw pack armies. If we do need some form of Blue Water ASW capability then we still retain Type 23 with its towed array and Merlin.

Secondly that brings us to the ASW we do now (yes we do it now!), that is protecting the bombers as they leave Faslane for deterrent patrol. Thats brown water ASW and can be done perfectly well with a twin engine turboprop type like the C295 MPA or ATR 72 ASW (as we already know the former would be my choice). I think there is a secondary role of being able to forward deploy to the Falklands to protect against Argentine Diesel subs off her waters so an AAR capability would be good with the installation of a probe.

Thirdly that brings us to who should operate it, well as it involves the protection of RN bombers then it is logical to have it as an FAA asset. Sensor operators are available from the Merlin community and as for pilots well even with cuts the navy retains quite a few. Actually it could be a way for the Navy to retain more trained fixed wing pilots outside of the RAF’s remit by rotating them from the F35 to the patrol aircraft. Its clear to me that the RAF are keen to have control of the F35 and one way to do that is keeping navy fixed wing pilot numbers down, having an MPA/ASW squadron in the FAA is a way of bypassing the RAF and keeping numbers up.

Fourthly that brings us to the other role that we need which is long range SAR coordination cover. A twin engine turboprop is not best suited to that role and the UK has learned to appreciate the advantages of using a jet. For me the solution is a long range business jet leased and operated on a power by the hour solution by the UK Coastguard. Something like the Falcon 50 M used by the French Aeronavale would be highly suited in the role.

Anyway that is my thinking, the RAF don’t need to be in the MPA/ASW game give that fully to the navy and long range SAR cover should be done by the UK Coastguard.

If and whenever new MPA aircraft are acquired, should they be operated by the RAF, RN, or the Coastguard?

it looks like the MoD are really regretting cancelling MRA4.

I think thats what we think rather than the MoD. I’m pretty sure they didn’t want to cancel anything but what else gets cut instead?

Defence *should* see an upturn post 2015. No doubt it’s a capability they would like back, infact if they intend to get it post 2015 then it makes sense to keep your hand in.

Interesting story Fedaykin, if you take the links you have supplied which suggest us sending crews to operate with US P3/P8’s (and I have read over on PPRUNE Military that we are also trying to do the same with NZ’s P3’s when the come back into service), the fact that Scavenger will not be able to fill all our maritime patrol requirements, the fact that the Coastguard is thinking about buying maritime patrol aircraft to fill the gap, and the story a while ago that the RN was looking to spend a billion on new ASW aircraft, it looks like the MoD are really regretting cancelling MRA4.

Interesting developments, reading between the lines it looks to me that they want to place some UK personnel with USN P3/P8 squadrons. That would ensure a core of personnel with the relevant skills if they decide to purchase an MPA in the future:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a5f93e407-d321-4fac-a865-dfe2a44ac147&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

Surprised no-one has mentioned Embraer’s Emb 145 offering

Wow thats a serious mistake! I would understand if they had given you the option Su-25 as it does look similar to the A-9 but A-10 …geeez:mad:

From what I understand of aircraft recognition for most squadrons its “Learn what aircraft the RAF operate…its in the blue book or on the big poster and pass the exam”! In respect of the wing aircraft recognition competitions the officers running it tended to have a chip on their shoulder about it all….”These teenagers couldn’t possibly know more then me…I went to RAF Akrotiri once and took some pictures” types. If you tried to engage them in conversation about the subject they tended to be very dismissive…heck I got told off once by one of those types at a camp. There was a picture of the British Aerospace EAP technology demonstrator on the wall of a room and the officer goes “have a look its the new Eurofighter which the RAF will start flying soon”, I politely said “Sorry sir thats the EAP technology demonstrator not Eurofighter”. Rather then let me letting me explain why and taking an interest that one of his cadets had learnt something he gave me a very public dressing down in front of the other cadets about how wrong I was…nuts!

On the plus side, he is unwilling to learn, so probably never got far 🙂

The tail makes me immediately think EAP, as they used a tail from a Tornado IIRC. There is also the matter of the engines… I was never in the cadets or ever taught to recognise aircraft.

If you want an MPA on the cheap, buy Ukrainian!

http://www.antonov.com/products/air/special/AN-74mp/index.xml

Also, can anybody PLEASE help me out with range figures for the Searchwater 7000MR radar? I can’t find any at all. Even the official brochure doesn’t have it. The Seaspray 7500E has a max stated range of 320NM: that’s a pretty high bar.

“As part of SDSR implementation work, a joint Navy/RAF team is considering options for the UK’s longer-term requirement for a maritime patrol capability.”

Don’t hold your breath.