Options for the Sao Paulo in Brazilian Naval Service?

I already asked a Brazilian guy for an official link of that list, if and when I get it I will post it here.

ps- Don’t forget the findings of vast oil fields on the brazilian coast, plus the reactivation of the 4th fleet, among other things…

also the construciton of a new naval base in the North (Maranhão) seems almost certain…

meanwhile here is a link form the OFFICIAL SITE OF THE BRAZILIAN NAVY
http://www.mar.mil.br/peamb.html

(It does not go into much detail as the “wish list” (as you put it) but it shares some light on the subject

thanks alot for the info. Im not denying modernization but 97 BILLION on defense and only navy related seems like a much too large figure to plausible when you look at how much Brazil has been spending in recent years (i.e second hand equipment). The official site is far more modest and sounds more like a Def review. It dose talk about modernization true but doesn’t specify anything.
it Mentions 7.5b Reals im not sure if thats the budget cumulatively(as it mentions a for one year) or for the whole program

sounds very much like a wish list. I would have expected contracts more than just ‘we want this fleet’. Sounds a little fanboyish no gov info just the name of a government program. I would have expected quote from a Def, Min to be talking about this and i don’t see it on either of the links and their would be much more info on all the various forgine desgines.
The link at the bottom is far more modest a replacement of the Vosper Frigates with a Hobart class as a possibility. My cynicism means i can’t take it seriously as their has been no evidence of Brazil spending such a huge amount on defense. If the Junta was in charge I might have believed it but a left wing ex trade unionist not so much.

I have a feeling the link isn’t genuine

I already asked a Brazilian guy for an official link of that list, if and when I get it I will post it here.

ps- Don’t forget the findings of vast oil fields on the brazilian coast, plus the reactivation of the 4th fleet, among other things…

also the construciton of a new naval base in the North (Maranhão) seems almost certain…

meanwhile here is a link form the OFFICIAL SITE OF THE BRAZILIAN NAVY
http://www.mar.mil.br/peamb.html

(It does not go into much detail as the “wish list” (as you put it) but it shares some light on the subject

sounds very much like a wish list. I would have expected contracts more than just ‘we want this fleet’. Sounds a little fanboyish no gov info just the name of a government program. I would have expected quote from a Def, Min to be talking about this and i don’t see it on either of the links and their would be much more info on all the various forgine desgines.
The link at the bottom is far more modest a replacement of the Vosper Frigates with a Hobart class as a possibility. My cynicism means i can’t take it seriously as their has been no evidence of Brazil spending such a huge amount on defense. If the Junta was in charge I might have believed it but a left wing ex trade unionist not so much.

I have a feeling the link isn’t genuine

If built, that fleet would put Brazil firmly into the second tier of naval powers.

taken from another forum (google translation)

a summary of the current Renovation Program of the Navy, current PEAMB, to run until the year 2030.Foram excluded from the modernization programs. The total planned investment and $ 95 billion (including the upgrades in progress).

FLEET (except Naval Aviation), and DHN Forces District:

15 submarines, diesel-electric (4 contractors);
06 nuclear propulsion submarines (1 contract);
02 aircraft carriers (similar to Charles De Gaulle with conventional propulsion);
04 multiple-purpose ships (these ships will be the Mistral class);
30 escort ships;
04 ships carrying aid;
05 vessels logistical support;
01 submarine rescue ship;
12 ocean patrol vessels of 1,800 tons;
27 patrol vessels of 500 tons (6 contractors / construction);
04 patrol vessels of 200 tons;
14 river patrol boats;
05 ships of hospital care;
08 tankers and support river;
08 sweepers;
08 minesweepers;
12 tugs of the high seas;
01 ship Oceanographical;
04 ships activities;
01 research vessels, and
01 polar ship (class icebreakers).

Naval Aviation:

48 aircraft for high-performance air defense;
08 AEW & C aircraft / CDO / tankers;
16 ASW helicopters / ASuW (4 SH70 acquired);
66 medium helicopters overall employment (16 engaged EC725);
60 light helicopters for general use, and
30 light helicopters instruction.

Corps:

78 cars caterpillar amphibians;
26 tanks;
42 armored personnel carriers (Piranha IIIC);
36 shells campaign;
06 rocket launchers;
02 air defense systems, and
02 electronic warfare systems.

Weapon Systems:

Heavyweight torpedo;
Lightweight torpedoes;
Minas contact and influence;
Surface-surface missiles;
Surface-to-air missiles;
Sub-surface missiles;
Air-ground rockets;
Anti-tank missiles;
Rocket missile decoys;
Rocket torpedo decoys;
Pumps depth;
Smart bombs;
Explosives;
Naval ammunition;
Ammunition light weapons;
Artillery ammunition, and
Fireworks in general.

also:

In recent months, after the Navy of Brazil will create programs for future escorts ocean patrol vessels, ship logistics and carrier, shipyards, several countries began to present their proposals, they say, would have full support their respective governments. As for aircraft carriers, it should be noted that the Navy of Brazil intends to operate a multi-purpose vessel, which may be one LHA or LHD (similar concept to the Spanish project for Australia and other, more conventional, to replace the São Paulo Carrier .

continues(in portuguese)
>>> http://pbrasil.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/especial-prm-reaparelhamento-da-marinha-do-brasil-candidatos-e-previsoes/

Well, the problem is the Sao Paulo can’t effectively operate anything besides the A-4’s.

Super Etendards.

Of which there are surplus machines due to it’s looming and ongoing retirement.

Not a plane I would choose personally, but there you go.

I’d personally go for a Rafale interceptor (at lighter weights) and Super Etendard or Skyhawk strike mix. Whatever carrier replacement comes on line in 10 to 20 years time can then take just the surviving Rafale’s over, with which they would have plenty of operating experience by then. A top up order would complete the new carriers air component and cover attrition.

Very simple really.:D

Yep… and just like Rafale can’t launch from Foch/Sao Paulo at full load, neither can the F/A-18.

Note that the 38,000 lb launch weight shown in H_K’s reference is a very light weight as well… the F/A-18C weights are: 23,050 pounds empty, 36,710 pounds loaded (air-to-air), 49,224 pounds loaded (ground attack), 56,000 pounds maximum takeoff.

Naval aircraft can generally use ski-jumps without any modifications. In fact, in the early 1980s the USN ran real life ski-jump tests with the F/A-18 and F-14. The USAF also ran computer simulations with the F-15 and F-16, but these aircraft would have required strengthened undercarriage.
http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA237265

For the F/A-18, the test results were as follows:

Launch conditions: No wind on deck, no altitude loss
Ski jump angle: 9 degrees
Launch weight: 32,800lbs
T/W ratio: ~1.0
Stall Speed: ~112kts
Approach speed: ~139kts (from here: www.aoe.vt.edu/~durham/2002-71.pdf)

Ground roll: 385ft

By comparison, the F-35B’s ground roll target is 450ft. So in a real world situation (450ft ground roll, 25kts wind over deck, some altitude loss allowed), an F/A-18 could launch at a significantly higher weight than 32,800lbs.

The same thing applies to Rafale, except that Rafale has more thrust (34,000lbs) and a lower stall speed (10kts lower?, due to more lift), so a Rafale should do better than an F/A-18. IMHO, a launch weight of >40,000lbs (>18t) is likely, which would give you at the very least a 3t external payload.

If, your numbers are correct for the Rafale. It could launch from a Ski-Jump at about the same weight. As it could from the Catapults on the Sao Paulo.

Naval aircraft can generally use ski-jumps without any modifications. In fact, in the early 1980s the USN ran real life ski-jump tests with the F/A-18 and F-14. The USAF also ran computer simulations with the F-15 and F-16, but these aircraft would have required strengthened undercarriage.
http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA237265

For the F/A-18, the test results were as follows:

Launch conditions: No wind on deck (I think), no altitude loss, 9 degree ski jump
Launch weight: 32,800lbs
T/W ratio: ~1.0
Stall Speed: ~112kts
Approach speed: ~139kts (from here: www.aoe.vt.edu/~durham/2002-71.pdf)

Ground roll: 385ft

By comparison, the F-35B’s ground roll target is 450ft. So in a real world situation (450ft ground roll, 25kts wind over deck, some altitude loss allowed), an F/A-18 could launch at a significantly higher weight than 32,800lbs.

The same thing applies to Rafale, except that Rafale has more thrust (34,000lbs) and a lower stall speed (10kts lower?, due to more lift), so a Rafale should do better than an F/A-18. IMHO, a launch weight of >40,000lbs (>18t) is likely, which would give you at the very least a 3t external payload.

Well I think Brazil should get out of the carrier game if I’m honest as there are better ways to spend the money. If CATOBAR carriers are out of their league then so should any other type of carrier as the costs between them are minimal.
Why do I not think it can operate from a Ski Jump? simply because it never has and I don’t know enough about the aircraft design and aerodynamics etc to say that it could. It could maybe get into the air but with what loads in what conditions etc there is too much unknown in my opinion. One thing I’m thinking about is the Eurofighter can get into the Air in 300 metres from brakes off at maximum power with a light weapons load. The Eurofighter has a higher thrust to weight ratio AFAIK so I don’t think a Rafale could get into the air with anything approaching a decent load in the short distance of the deck even when including a Ski Jump.

I was not suggesting the A4s would be kept on indefinitely.

Br can fly other aircraft from the Sao Paolo ‘today’ if they so choose to do. But they don’t. And seem satisfied with that situation

Likewise, with a new deck, they may not feel a pressing need for e.g. F-35 or F-18E/F, or even Rafale.

Well, the problem is the Sao Paulo can’t effectively operate anything besides the A-4’s. (which are of a limited value) The Rafale is possible but even then at greatly reduced take off weights. Even so the Sao Paulo is extremely expensive to own and operate……This only gets worse by the day.

I know this is going back to the last page but i just wanted to say that i doubt it will ever happen Argentina has much better things to spend money on.

I still think this whole Question hinges on what fighter wins the current competition the chances are it will be the Rafale as it looks to have the upper hand. If the Rafale wins the Air Force competition then logically the navy should use the aircraft as a carrier borne fighter, the reasons are pretty obvious. I think the Question would then be what is the cheapest and most effective way to get the Rafale to sea on a new ship. Use an existing design or a design based closely on an existing design or spend the money having a brand new design created for you, the former would seem the better way but there are problems with that idea. The Indian Project 71 class carrier could be modified to have catapults* but at what cost and where would the hull be built and what else would need to be changed for it to be suited to Brazilian service.

Well, I think the race is “extremely” close. Yet, I believe the Super Hornet is going to pull it out. Regardless, I do agree the Winner (Rafale or Super Hornet) of the F/X should also be adapted by the Brazilian Navy. Of course the Sao Paulo is not the ideal platform for either. So, that’s why we are back to a replacement. Along with the fact that the Sao Paulo (ex-Foch) is very old and expensive to operate and maintain.

As for the Project 71’s or any other perspective carrier. I think catapults are just not in the cards. Because such a Carrier is just to expensive for Brazil.

Really, the Project 71’s are perfect in my opinion. Especially, with as few changes as possible. Brazil just needs to find a third party to build it at a reasonable price. Assuming that India would sell the plans??

Being realistic Brazil getting a new carrier is pretty remote there are better things to spend the money on as shown in that article Swerve found there are places money needs to be spend within the navy and even they are not being funded. There are also other areas within the defence budget apart from the navy that could use this money and any suggestion to replace the carrier should be kicked further down the line. I also do not see the need for a Carrier at all in South America especially for Brazil which is a vast nation that borders almost all the other South American nations. If they wanted to step up on the global stage there are much better ways of doing so than buying a carrier it may be prestigious but of little real use, as I have said an LPD is all they need even much further down the line.

If, Brazil has better places to spend it resources and it doesn’t plan on replacing the Sao Paulo for a very long time. Why waste of the current resources with the Sao Paulo in the first place. As the Carrier is very expensive to Man and Operate. Further, the ship offers very little capability with less than a dozen antiquated A-4’s!

In short Brazil needs to find a replace or just get out of the Carrier Business!

*The Rafale could be launched from a Ski Jump maybe but it has not been tested, certified or designed to do so. Unless someone can prove to me that it can operate from a Ski Jump without problem then fine, if not I will maintain it needs a catapult.

Why for a “second” do you believe the Rafale can’t operate from a Ski-Jump??? The Mig-29K was a landbased fighter highly modified with strengthen landing gear to operate from Carriers. The Rafale, Hornet, Super Hornet, etc. etc. Are Naval Fighters from the start and were designed from the ground up to operate in such harsh conditions.:rolleyes:

I’m going to go out on a limb here and fully expect it to get chopped off. Let’s say there is money available for a new carrier at some point between 2010 and 2020 and it will be spent on a carrier as everything else has somehow been taken care of. Also let’s assume the Rafale has won the competition and the Brazilians decided they would like some navalised Rafales as part of the order so we are now looking for a carrier that can use the Rafale M as it is now. In my opinion that seems to be the logical path and the rafale has a good chance of winning as we all might know.

I would suggest a copy of whatever the French decide to build for PA2 which in some ways they have to build at some point. If the PA2 turns out to be nuclear powered then there might be an issue there but if it is conventionally powered I see no reason why Brazil would not be interested if it was looking for a carrier.

Remember, even if Brazil decided on a Carrier Replacement Today. It would be at least a decade or more before it entered service. So, you have to think more in the longer-term. So, by time the Carrier was ready. The Skyhawk would be just a memory.;)

I was not suggesting the A4s would be kept on indefinitely.

Br can fly other aircraft from the Sao Paolo ‘today’ if they so choose to do. But they don’t. And seem satisfied with that situation

Likewise, with a new deck, they may not feel a pressing need for e.g. F-35 or F-18E/F, or even Rafale.

True but steel is cheap. So, Brazil could purchase a slightly larger carrier around the size of the Project 71’s. Thereby allowing it to operate conventional Naval Aircraft instead of STOVL Types.

Steel is cheap, but not free, especially when one is building to military standards, & a bigger carrier needs more propulsion, which isn’t particularly cheap, more air conditioning, etc., etc. It’s not like building a big empty box for carrying containers at constant speed.

And why choose the limitations of STOBAR if one doesn’t have to? The reasons why India selected it are very specific to the time & Indias particular circumstances.

Which would be a wise decision given that F-35B is going to be priced fairly competitively and is much more capable then the competition.

Well, even if Brazil procured say the Rafale now. That doesn’t preclude her from getting F-35’s down the road. Maybe even Russian or Chinese types….(the latter not likely but who knows)

It would save some money, but not very much in comparison to the cost of a carrier. A smaller STOVL carrier would be much cheaper than one large enough for STOBAR, but that is only possible if Brazil buys F-35B.

True but steel is cheap. So, Brazil could purchase a slightly larger carrier around the size of the Project 71’s. Thereby allowing it to operate conventional Naval Aircraft instead of STOVL Types.

For that matter maybe Brazil should strike a deal with Argentine to get two carriers built which would give attractive cost savings for the new build.

I know this is going back to the last page but i just wanted to say that i doubt it will ever happen Argentina has much better things to spend money on.

I still think this whole Question hinges on what fighter wins the current competition the chances are it will be the Rafale as it looks to have the upper hand. If the Rafale wins the Air Force competition then logically the navy should use the aircraft as a carrier borne fighter, the reasons are pretty obvious. I think the Question would then be what is the cheapest and most effective way to get the Rafale to sea on a new ship. Use an existing design or a design based closely on an existing design or spend the money having a brand new design created for you, the former would seem the better way but there are problems with that idea. The Indian Project 71 class carrier could be modified to have catapults* but at what cost and where would the hull be built and what else would need to be changed for it to be suited to Brazilian service.

Being realistic Brazil getting a new carrier is pretty remote there are better things to spend the money on as shown in that article Swerve found there are places money needs to be spend within the navy and even they are not being funded. There are also other areas within the defence budget apart from the navy that could use this money and any suggestion to replace the carrier should be kicked further down the line. I also do not see the need for a Carrier at all in South America especially for Brazil which is a vast nation that borders almost all the other South American nations. If they wanted to step up on the global stage there are much better ways of doing so than buying a carrier it may be prestigious but of little real use, as I have said an LPD is all they need even much further down the line.

*The Rafale could be launched from a Ski Jump maybe but it has not been tested, certified or designed to do so. Unless someone can prove to me that it can operate from a Ski Jump without problem then fine, if not I will maintain it needs a catapult.

It would save some money, but not very much in comparison to the cost of a carrier. A smaller STOVL carrier would be much cheaper than one large enough for STOBAR, but that is only possible if Brazil buys F-35B.

Which would be a wise decision given that F-35B is going to be priced fairly competitively and is much more capable then the competition.

Well, the biggest problem Brazil will face with regards to replacing the Sao Paulo. Will be the lack of funds! Which, is why I suggested that a Ski-Jump Carrier. Along the lines of the Project 71 mite be the best solution???

It would save some money, but not very much in comparison to the cost of a carrier. A smaller STOVL carrier would be much cheaper than one large enough for STOBAR, but that is only possible if Brazil buys F-35B.