Origin of calling 'Final' is this true?

It is quite possible both terms were used and are similar enough that one appears to be the source of the other.

Possibly, the lighting systems were developments of each other.
Apologies if I’m misunderstanding you here, but there isn’t such a thing as ‘a funnel lighting’ system.

Originally there were various lighting systems in use, including the pre-war Chance floodlighting abd Contact lighting.
New designs came along to standardise systems such as Drem which was known as A.F.L. MkI.
MkII introduced funnels, including outer, intermediate, and inner funnel arrangements to pick up from the outer circle of lights and feed (or funnel)aircraft directly to the flare path and runway.
MkIII had main funnels and fog funnels.
I’m unsure at what Mk AFL it changed but funnels gave way to cross bar lighting on the approach and better radio approach aids.

Just out of interest, the funnel lights also had a take-off use whereby they supplied horizon reference to a departing aircraft crew at night.

It’s a huge subject, which AP3236 covers well.

Certainly in the early stages there were funnel lighting elements to the Drem system.

Perhaps used more by the Bomber/Multi engine fraternity.
ISTR that the B36 err Undershoot at Boscombe Down in 1952 was probably because the Pilot mistook the Funnel lights for peri lights…

In January 1952, Jim Connor and crew were heading for Boscombe Down near Salisbury, England. The area was covered by a snowstorm and there was no radar or other sophisticated approach system with landing lights. The spire on the Salisbury Cathedral had just been rebuilt and aircraft warning lights installed. After orbiting this light for some time, Connor saw what he thought were approach lights for the field, and he set up a descent. Unfortunately, these were not approach lights, but were lights on one side of a funnel lighting system. The theory was that if a pilot picked up one of these strings of lights and flew on the inside, he would soon pick up the other line, and this would guide him to the end of the runway. The landing appeared to be routine until touchdown when they went through a ditch, across a road, and through another ditch scattering haystacks as they rolled along.

So looks like Boscombe Down still had Funnel lights in 1952 (and a very rudimentary radar !)

I agree with Tim = Cotteswold…

Finals is/was just an easier way of saying ‘Final’…pedantry has brought about the more widespread use of Final.

When I drove Cessnazzzz around – I most definitely used ‘FINALS’…sounds much cooler than FINAL 😀

At our gliding club in zimbabwe we used to routinely give a courtesy call of ‘Downwind’ as we joined the downwind leg…one of our characters modified it slightly and would call (say) …”62 downwind leg -over ” 😀

rgds baz

Certainly in the early stages there were funnel lighting elements to the Drem system.

It is quite possible both terms were used and are similar enough that one appears to be the source of the other.

It is possible that ‘funnel’ may have been used on the Drem pattern but that is a first for me.

Certainly in the early stages there were funnel lighting elements to the Drem system.

From Airliners.net

“Many people on A.net incorrectly use the term “finals” to describe the final approach segment of flight.

The final approach is a singular activity not a plural activity hence the singular form of the word.

“Finals” is non standard ICAO phraseology. This is not just a “US English” versus “British English” issue.

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/PCG/F.HTM

FINAL- Commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach course or is aligned with a landing area.

(See FINAL APPROACH COURSE.)

(See FINAL APPROACH-IFR.)

(See SEGMENTS OF AN INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURE.)

FINAL APPROACH [ICAO]- That part of an instrument approach procedure which commences at the specified final approach fix or point, or where such a fix or point is not specified.

a. At the end of the last procedure turn, base turn or inbound turn of a racetrack procedure, if specified; or

b. At the point of interception of the last track specified in the approach procedure; and ends at a point in the vicinity of an aerodrome from which:

1. A landing can be made; or

2. A missed approach procedure is initiated. “

My understanding has always been that is refers to a final approach as apposed to an initial approach. Initial approached is to the airfield in general and final approach after the base leg turn. So, if you had a runway of 27/09 landing towards the west and you were approaching from the south, your initial approach would be to join the circuit, which would be crosswind to the landing runway, then your final turn onto 090 degrees would be your final approach.

It is possible that ‘funnel’ may have been used on the Drem pattern but that is a first for me.

Hi Tim, was thinking about your Shack incident (WB861, Sep ’57?), it doesn’t seem that unheard of for the MR.1/T.4s to land with a complete, or one, gear not down even into the late MOTU years in the late 1960s.
Maybe a design weakness somewhere along the line?!
It didn’t seem to happen to the MR.2s so much, and of course the MR.3s had their bunch of nose gear failures at service entry.

The funnel system was WWII era really, as part of early Drem set up it was superceded by later Drem Mks possibly Mk3?
Many of the bomber and larger airfields would also have an outer ring (lead in) of lights on poles quite a distance out from the airfield that would guide the aircraft from either in a holding pattern, or just arived, to the funnels on runway approaches.

Along with many other correct radio transmitted terms/words “”Finals”” cant be mistaken for another word when frequency/reception is poor.

As for where it came from? Gawd knows but the navy normally get in there first with where pilots sit and general approach of aircraft due to the position of the Island on the deck of a carrier.

To my mind, it was just a corruption & easier-off-the-tongue FINAL (approach).

3 Greens was sometimes All Green – even when there were only 2 (on Mk1). This is what I might have used on that night when – however many greens we had – the wheels were conspicuously missing on touchdown……………!!

= Tim

Reading the above, I have to say that I had never heard the term [B]Funnel[B] until tonight. Live & learn?

Just to clarify the Drem lighting system + Funnels

But even assuming that all had gone well on the operation, that there were no losses or damaged aircraft, it still meant that as many as 30 aircraft manned by tired crews had to be brought down safely. The system developed to achieve this was called the Drem system. This comprised an ellipse of lights around the airfield and a series of lights along each of the (usually) three runways. When crews were returning home, the outer lights and the lights for the runway in use were switched on.

Aircraft approached the airfield at 1500ft and at right angles to the runway (1) in use. The pilot called the Control Tower identifying the aircraft, the Tower would answer “Proceed upwind.” At this position (2) at an altitude of 1000ft the pilot called “Upwind” and later “Crosswind” at (3). Other pilots would be calling in at their position in the circuit. At (4) downwind, the aircraft began a descent to 500ft, the pilot reporting “Funnel” as he turned towards the runway; he hoped to hear the reply “Pancake” meaning he was clear to land. If there was trouble the command was “Overshoot”. On successfully landing, (6) the pilot reported “Clear of runway.”

Extract from this site…
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=funnels%20call%20raf&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CEwQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.galgos.co.uk%2F52001%2Findex.html&ei=W-jyULWjF83B0gWkvIEg&usg=AFQjCNHBSa07Sw0v4yGNDyxl7x1ckP3SQA

Yes Finals seemed the normal call at one time…
‘Final’ may just be a bit of ‘pedanticism’ because one is on ‘Final Approach’

rgds baz

I always thought ‘Finals’ meant that all final checks to land (as per the Pilots Notes, checklists etc) had been completed in the cockpit and relayed to the controller – ie runway or lights in sight, switched to correct frequency, gear down, flaps at correct angle, and power settings correct for a landing.

I agree, finals was postwar RAF phraseology. Not sure when they dropped the “s” but quite recently perhaps.

Res,,,many taildraggers have retractable tailwheels…

Yes, like the Mosquito. That only had 2 greens for the main wheels, so ours had the tailwheels locked down as apparently it was not uncommon for them not to come down on command. The pilot would have no indication resulting in more carpentry.

From PPRUNE about 10 years ago 😀

When I wuz in Borneo…..BOF

A/C on long finals………..Beverly22 Finals
ATC Roger Beverly22, call 3 greens
All the way to 2 miles…
Beverly22 2 miles
Roger, 22 CONFIRM 3 GREENS!!
OK, OK, 3 Greens, DOWN, LOCKED AND FLIPPIN’ WELDED
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

Res,,,many taildraggers have retractable tailwheels…

I’ll go along with Pete Verney – except, of course, in the case of tail-draggers when “2 Greens” was the max you could expect?!!
HTH
Resmoroh

It used to be “Finals, 3 greens” to confirm that the undercart was down and locked, before the pilot chucked it at the runway.

I’ve heard that story too but it may be a myth. However, the correct word for the report was actually “funnels” which might explain the “finals” call used by many older private pilots who were trained by wartime veteran pilots. It should be “final” singular of course.