Our Stirling investigation has hit the UK newspapers

Hey I am glad I figured the internet out, don’t overwelm me now 😀

You are able to edit your own posts using the … edit button

Ok, so I am senile..here is the link!!!:o

http://www.hr-online.de/website/fernsehen/sendungen/video_archiv5300.jsp?key=standard_document_38875987&jmpage=1&type=v&r=2&rubrik=5300&t=20100322&y=2010&jm=5&mediakey=fs/hessenschau/20100322_1930_grabungen_nach_bomber

Hey all, I have to admit, we had very little problems with the MOD. We contacted their representative here in Germany, while the families contacted the MOD in the UK. What we were told is that if the local government, in our case it was the Buegermeister of Brandau, authorizes the recovery, then the MOD cannot prevent this as it is not on their soil. I think in the case of this aircraft, the families should maybe all unite and address the MOD together, while our Dutch friends contact Rijkswater or whoever else is responsible for this area and requests permission. It would be so much easier if the aircraft had crashed on land.

I am attaching the link to our attempted recovery of Lancaster JB221 and its four missing crew members. Sorry, but it is in German. Danny

By heck you have good eyesight!

Martin,

So far we haven’t found anything of the tail, so must be the nose turret.
Cees

really interesting ,looked like the control column from the rear turret they were bringing up.

That’s excellent footage. This surely must help to get things going.

Some Dutch regional Televison footage of the visit of one of the next of kin Roy Long.

http://www.rtvnh.nl/player.php?stream=NItemTV&item=10-Minuten2009/10-Minuten-14-december.wmv&title=Roy

Thanks Bram,

Cees

Andy,

Yes, the CWGC are a fine bunch of people, having seen them in action several years ago, they really understand their job. And as you say it’s not their job to recover missing aircrew, it’s the governments that let them down.

The wreck is not in the sea but in the IJsselmeer, the big lake in the middle of our flat country, it’s not deep but a vast stretch of water with hundreds of wrecks are still down there possibly with every new find having a large chance to find missing aircrew.

Peter,

As the investigation is still ongoing pics are limited at the moment apart for identification purposed you understand. This is of course due to the sensitivity of the case.

Cees

Just to comment, Icare9, that it is outside the remit of the CWGC to act in such matters. It has never been their brief to recover remains, only to ensure their proper burial and commemoration (eg their excellent work at Fromelles) once remains are recovered and any recoveries actually fall outside their charter.

I just want to make the point that the CWGC are beyond reproach.

For that matter, so are the RAF who would only be tasked for any recovery by their masters at the MOD.

The water is shallow at only two metres but everything is in a metre of soft mud with no visibility.

but the sea is tidal, so is it uncovered during neap (low) tides?

Congratulations, Cees for doing the right thing for our lads and only wish it didn’t always seem that the RAF/MoD/CWGC seem so reluctant to get involved.

What I would like to see is that, when a report of sites being excavated is known, the British Government immediately steps in and “asks” that Country to secure the area, so that no identification objects are removed.

If such items appear for auction, all parties buyer and seller, can be arrested. unless prior provenance exists.

It’s the trade and potential rewards for such artefacts that destroys any chance of according those soldiers the dignity of their true identity. I’m not saying that of CeBro, but of those excuses for lifeforms that rob graves. – Sorry, rant over….

Perhaps there should be a compensation scheme where expenses incurred can be paid when wrecks are located, with 2second” call on possession of objects found if not “wanted” by the relatives, RAF etc….

Any pics of this or the lanc Cees?

Thanks chaps,

By the way, it’s not my project but the museum I work for as a volunteer. Several people (with our chairman bearing the brunt of the work at the moment) are spending their spare time doing the job that the paid jobs should do.
By a one in a million chance the aircraft was identified after the second diving expedition when a panel was brought up, which after clearing was identified as the skinpanel to the right of the entry door and carrying the full serialnumber. To say we were extatic is an understatement.:rolleyes:
The previous investigation on the lake, the 300 sqn Lanc took us five years to fully identify.
Cees

Convention I, Art. 17?

Burial of the dead must be carried out individually if possible and must be preceded by a careful examination in order to confirm death and establish identity. The burials should be honorable and, if possible, according to the rites of the religion to which the deceased belonged. Graves must be properly maintained, with adequate record keeping, so that they may be found later.

My reading is that it would take a clever lawyer to turn that around to compel the recovery of remains by the nation to which the combatants belonged or the nation on whose land (lake) they fell.

Moggy

I think there was (is) a clause in the Geneva Convention that requires combatant nations to accord proper burial rights (or rites!) to fallen members of enemy forces. So far as I know there is no requirement upon combatant nations under the convention to affrord such rights to its own forces – that, presumably, being taken for granted.

The Geneva Convention still stands, it’s about time countries should act accordingly.

Cees

I may be wrong, but I am uncertain if any of the Geneva Conventions actually refers to the mortal remains of combatants.

The family wrote to Prince Charles when the crash location became known. Result? The RAF were tasked to recover the wreck and within a week the RAF had carried out the wishes of the family.

Is he back from Afghanistan yet?

Moggy

I am sure that Cees will not give up his efforts to have the right thing done, although we have to accept that the UK (and Dutch) authorities will need to be prodded or shamed into action to actually become involved or, at least, to approve officially the proper recovery undertaken by a private concern but with official involvement/presence/support. A case in point is the certain Battle of Britain Hurricane pilot’s recovery attempted somewhere in England a couple of years back (discussion of which is banned on this forum) where development threatened the site. The MOD did not carry out the attempted recovery. It was a private individual with “military support”…..although the latter was provided at weekends and by volunteer service personnel in their own time. So, given that scenario, it seems likely that the MOD would not get actively involved in a difficult and costly exercise like this. On the other hand, look at the case of Sgt Ernest Scott in Kent some years ago. The family wrote to Prince Charles when the crash location became known. Result? The RAF were tasked to recover the wreck and within a week the RAF had carried out the wishes of the family. So, it can be done Cees!

And as Cees so rightly said they should have the appropriate burial to which they are entitled.

Seconded

Best of luck with this Cees, please keep us posted. As you say, they deserve to be recognised.

And as Cees so rightly said they should have the appropriate burial to which they are entitled.