Outside the fence??

You cant argue with that.

At the last Sywell Show, the ‘freeloaders’ set up their usual picnic accoutrements on the side of the road which presumably also carries with it some danger, never mind double parking on blind bends etc – we dealt with this by walking up and down shouting ‘THE AIRSHOW YOU ARE CURRENTLY WATCHING FOR FREE HAS BEEN PAID FOR BY THOSE WHO BOUGHT TICKETS AND ALL PROCEEDS ARE GOING TO THE AIR AMBULANCE – WE WISH YOU A SAFE JOURNEY HOME AND HOPE YOU DO NOT NEED ITS ASSISTANCE’

People strangely started digging in their pockets – one chap even stuck £20 in which was flaming stupid as it was only £10 a ticket.

Unfortunately the GBP are ever thus

TT

Re Freeloaders. Duxford primary school were selling park-and-view facilities for £5 per car, but most people were piling into the field beside the M11, under the approach, where the Bf 109 ended up inverted a few years ago.

And if similar happened again then we have the cry” Ban these dangerous Air displays, how could this be alowed to happen!!!!”
This is not just a case of money, it is saftey as well. If the crowd is within the correct area the rules are there to make sure that if the worst happens then members of the puplic are safe, and its not just for the public, if a pilot has a problem he is going to want to head away from the crowd and if is does so and then is faced with a field full od people it leaves him knowhere to go!!!!

On Saturday the police moved off all the people standing in the field opposite the Land Warfare Hall, I dont know if the same thing happened on Sunday as I was down the other end.

The ‘baby’ Spits taking off on the grass came past the Tank Bank at about 100 feet range and barely off the ground. Fabulous!

The Norwegian DC-3 came right over the crowd a couple of times, and will perhaps get a little input from the display commitee!

Re Freeloaders. Duxford primary school were selling park-and-view facilities for £5 per car, but most people were piling into the field beside the M11, under the approach, where the Bf 109 ended up inverted a few years ago.

I have just got back from flying legends today. In an earlier posting of some of my comments in this thread I mentioned that private airshows are better nowadays at displaying to the crowd inside the airfield.

Many aircraft did just that today. However, I was rather dissapointed at the Spitfires. Most of the so called ‘topside’ passes of the tailchaising was so shallow by the time they were inside the airfield that most of the time you had an edge on view of them. This even included the first group pass in from the north east. They also only started turning when they were already outside the airfield. I did not think the Corsairs were that that good in this respect either – the came in at the other end close together then each went their own way well before reaching the end where I and many other people were.

So whoever you are at displaying your aircraft please, please display to the whole crowd. The means the middle and either end of the crowdline.

And come on flying legends.

With some other aircraft please make sure everyone sees the action and please do no always turn away too soon or be too far away. Even my 30D with my 400mm lens was not enough for some of them.

I have no doubt some people may well have got great pictures of the Spitfires outside the fence!

The Mustangs were brilliant, the Sea Fury was brilliant etc etc but from the reaction arround me from others including photographers, the Spitfires did not have such a ‘wow’ factor.

I am going back to Duxford tomorrow and hoping for something better.

Couldn’t agree with Andy’s POV more. If you personally pay to get into an event, you often don’t have the option of getting, say, a seat in a covered area (if it rains), or stands.

I often feel like I am being treated as a 2nd class visitor because I’ve paid. I have to bring my own partitioning and seating, and don’t even get a cup of tea or a biscuit.

People are starting to look more and more at what you get in terms of “added value” these days, and if all they get is the option to be 5th or 6th deep from the display line at an overcrowded event, they may soon start reconsidering their patronage.

Another thing is the way serving military aircraft almost all look the same now – grey blobs. For displays it would be nice to get a bit of colour into them – nose art – larger squadron insignia. When a Eurofighter turns up completely grey with tiny little roundels, it makes for a relatively borning photograph.

I’d even suggested that the Red Arrows played around with their colour schemes and tried to be a bit more imaginative.

But remember an Airshow is not put on just so you can come and take picture’s, it is there to entertain the general public as well so it will always be a compramise. You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all of the time!!

Indeed so – just as I said above. But you’ve got to accept that compromise in the minds of any section of attendees may result in some deciding that the admission fee is not worth it. For air shows to get people inside, the price of admission HAS to offer more than the option of standing outside for free, however people measure “more”. Like I also said, I’m happy to pay for air shows (can’t remember one I’ve “freeloaded” at in recent years) but then again I only go to the ones where I percieve that the admission offers value for money to me – i.e. those where I know the photo opportunities will be good – and the rest I just don’t travel to.

But consider this – not going to a show at all is just as big a loss to organisers as are the people standing outside. Both groups contribute nothing to a show’s income and viability. Air shows DO need to canvass opinions – again as I said when was the last time an air show actively encouraged suggestions and feedback from those going through the gate.

—

Having said that, I’ll put up another contravertial comment and it primarily related to some regular airshow attendees/enthusiasts… My perception these days is that SOME air shows (only some, not all) give away far too much in terms of free admission and special facilities to those “in the know” or “connected”, financed by those “not in the know” who pay to go through the gate. When paying customers observe others getting in for free and then getting the best views, the best access, etc, then inevitably some of them will feel aggreived. As an example, in years gone past there were far too many folks getting into RIAT for free, and getting better access than the paying punters, based on who they knew or what they knew. I know MANY enthusiasts got turned off by that, and the ever increasing gate prices (way above inflation), and that’s one of the reason’s why RIAT’s gates dropped a few years ago.

Old Warden is a GREAT example of a location where you do not get that impression – where if there are people getting in for free or getting better facilities for free, its not obvious. But Duxford on Legends weekend is one where it all too often appears as if the normal folks who pay on the gate are the have-nots. Its hard to justify paying good money, when perception is that there are others getting in for free and getting even better facilities. This is one of the reasons why, even though I’ll go to Duxford tomorrow, I prefer the smaller shows these days – they usually appear to do far less pandering to the connected minority at the expense of those paying to go through the gate.

Andy

Neal

My ‘imtelligemce’ is directly proportiomal to the mumber of Laphroaigs I’ve had. Actually thought I was beimg ‘jocular’ so maybe you could catch up om the simgle malts before reading – or summat. 😀

I do kmow what freeloadimg is, was im the mob, it’s a core skill!! :diablo: But in this comtext I thimk I would call it ‘taking advamtage’.

Damm it, seem to be fixated on the ‘m’ key mow. . . . time for bed I thimk.

:rolleyes:

Aha, sorry Les 😮 . Didn’t think that post was your style, maybe I need to catch up. I’ve not had a drink tonight, I’ll make up for it tomorrow though. :diablo:

Cheers

Neal

Neal

My ‘imtelligemce’ is directly proportiomal to the mumber of Laphroaigs I’ve had. Actually thought I was beimg ‘jocular’ so maybe you could catch up om the simgle malts before reading – or summat. 😀

I do kmow what freeloadimg is, was im the mob, it’s a core skill!! :diablo: But in this comtext I thimk I would call it ‘taking advamtage’.

Damm it, seem to be fixated on the ‘m’ key mow. . . . time for bed I thimk.

:rolleyes:

LesB, you’re an intelligent man, why come out with such drivel as huge screens and electro magnets.
I was commenting on ways to stop it, as you said, it can’t be stopped. I was just making it clear what freeloading is as there seems to be some confusion on this thread.

Although, there was a show a few years ago( RIAT Cottesmore) where the police were constantly patroling the roads around the airfield and moving on people who parked up on the roadsides to watch the show.

Now, any Bedfordshire Police officers willing to drive past Old Warden on show days.

Neal

Now if the same guy drives a hundred miles to go to Shoreham for example, a charity show run by volunteers, with his cameras and lenses and parks up in a nearby field and is there all day watching and photographing the show without paying a penny or attempting to get then that is freeloading. Simple

So what are you going to do? Erect huge screens around each event? Intstall a ring-loop to give an electromagnetic pulse that wipes the memory card of everybody not actually on the airfield? Use your long lens to identify the culprits and send ‘the lads’ round later?

Exquisite pro and con arguments can be wielded here until the cows come home, but it’s not going to stop the practice, is it?

I think it would be better to accept that the ‘problem’ has no solution. 😉

.

Robbo – nothing at all.

However: –

Shows exist because they’re paid for by someone.

There are lots of ways of paying for something, directly and/or indirectly (adverts on ITV for example).

Perhaps (I don’t know, this is speculation) there are other ways that an event can be paid for. I know, for example, that Plymouth tried again this year, using sponsorship. Unfortunately something (I know not what) went wrong and the event was cancelled.

Sponsorship, though, isn’t as free as we might think. The past and future customers of the sponsors are ultimately the people who pay for an event. And in the end that ultimately filters down to everyone of us.

Just considering ways of removing the epidermis from the feline.

the bloke with a long lens stuck in the traffic queue waiting to get into, eg, RIAT. freeloaders?

No not a freeloader, he’s set out to go to the show and pay to go on site. If he’s stuck in a queue then thats bad luck and if he’s got his camera he may as well take shots while he waits.

Now if the same guy drives a hundred miles to go to Shoreham for example, a charity show run by volunteers, with his cameras and lenses and parks up in a nearby field and is there all day watching and photographing the show without paying a penny or attempting to get then that is freeloading. Simple

Neal

Good to get a discussion going?

If some folks stand ‘outside the fence’, so what? Means little in the overall scheme of things and doesn’t detract in any way from the quality of non-freeloader images does it?.

😉

As far as i am concerned i dont give a damm as to where people stand to take there picture’s ( as long as it does not compramise saftey!!) as long as they have brought a ticket to the event in question. to say that it is perfectly ok for people to just turn up, stand outside, and take as many pics as they please ( some of which will then be offered for sale on their or others websites) realy p****S me off. Come to the event, buy a ticket, and then offer contructive coments as to how the event organiser can improve your experience. But remember an Airshow is not put on just so you can come and take picture’s, it is there to entertain the general public as well so it will always be a compramise. You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all of the time!!

If you don’t have a ticket (paid or otherwise) to enjoy the entertainment you’re freeloading.

Not really. What about all those thousands who are in a position to take images of airshow participants but who are nowhere near the airfield? Or the folks who live in the houses and villages surrounding most airfields, the folk (maybe even photographers) who live, or contrive to be, under the approach or depature routes, the bloke with a long lens stuck in the traffic queue waiting to get into, eg, RIAT. There are thousands of such people. Are they freeloaders?

I’ve been going to air shows for donkeys years now, since before you were born in fact. I admit the early years were kind of ‘free’ because I was either on the station or support to the away displays. But now I’ll always pay to enter not begruding one penny – except maybe at RIAT which is a con. Air shows for me, and thousands like me, are not primarily about photography they’re about meeting old friends, that and basking in an aviation centric atmosphere for a few hours. Seems to me that the good folks on this thread are getting exercised mostly about competition in taking the ‘best’ photos.

And that’s no problem. It’s a good thing in fact. The images presented here, and in other places, are orders of magnitude better that anything I (or most) can produce. But they’re not the main reason for air shows in my opinion.

If some folks stand ‘outside the fence’, so what? Means little in the overall scheme of things and doesn’t detract in any way from the quality of non-freeloader images does it?.

😉

Paul, I appreciate other points of view but I also have the right to evaluate them. Whilst I appreciate that there are shots that people may wish to get that can’t be got from inside a show, it’s a bit rich to say that in doing so you’re not freeloading. If you don’t have a ticket (paid or otherwise) to enjoy the entertainment you’re freeloading. If you weigh up that it’s not worth paying and give yourself the option of enjoying the show without paying (bit of a loaded question really) you’re freeloading. Try this logic at your local cinema, try it at your local supermarket. Go to a match and decide that you’d like the view much better from the touchline? Don’t like the terms? Don’t go.

I’m a photographer too but I’ve always had a ticket. When I’ve been given a free ticket in the past I’ve chucked an equivalent donation to one of the charities at the show.

By that logic, as cinemas and supermarkets employ security, why not simply create a 5 mile exclusion zone around the air show so you make sure no-one can possibly see the displays properly unless they’ve paid?

Again, I can understand what you’re saying, and I partly agree, but I don’t believe you can apply the same logic to an air show as you can your local supermarket. They’re not quite the same thing.

Anyway, that Sir is your opinion, which you are of course entitled to. I’m just more inclined to agree with Andy’s way of thinking. 🙂

Paul

Robbo is well known for his “controversial” views 😉

It is sometimes better to be aware of this with many posters on many forums.

Don’t get me wrong, not accusing Robbo of anything, he’s a genuinely nice enough Guy when you meet him, but I try to keep a balanced view myself.

Skymonster, however you contrive to justify it to yourself, freeloading is freeloading.

I think that’s an amazingly unfair statement. Andy has done nothing but give his perspective as a photographer and paying member of the public, and as a photographer myself (albeit a beginner) I can understand his viewpoint on this. Sometimes you’re after something that ‘being on the inside’ just can’t give you. He’s also very clearly indicated he is not in favour of people who attend air shows with the genuine intent of ‘freeloading’ when perhaps paying the entrance fee wouldn’t be the end of their world.

I appreciate your point of view, but unfortunately I’m not convinced you appreciate anyone elses.

Paul

RobAnt

Hope you have a good day at Yeovilton (outside the fence)

Thanks.