P-15 A With Pictures and Specs.

reloading of Barak? I don’t believe that. There is no VLS at the moment that can manually reload VLS missiles… Klinok is laden manually, but no ship carries any reload. So even if they can do it, likely no one is bothering to try this.

Been while since i last posted here been busy latel:p

The whole point of having VL units is – among other things – that there is no reloading proces: all rounds are ready rounds.

VLS systems can be reloaded only hassle is that its tedious process requires cranes etc for larger missiles. Additional missiles for barak system are carried onboard israeli vessels for sure dont have much detail on how they are reloaded or how long it takes.

Why wouldn’t IN go for Kashtan on P15A? After all, it is using it on Talwar class, it is planned for the first three P17 frigates. This irrespective of the fact that IN tested Kashtan M only recently! Both of which have a fully Russian suite of weapons. Most weaponry aboard P15A is likewise Russian. To avoid integration problems, it would make sense to stick with a fully Russian set of armaments, including Kashtan.

Talwar was concieved back in 1997 and P17 around 1999 well before IN decided to adopt barak on its surface combatants. They already had integerated barak with P-15 and overcame most of integeration problems why wont they not do the same with P-15A as well.

huh? how does that matter kashtan is fitted with only 8 missiles at one time and it can intercept 2 targets at one time the additional missiles are reloaded automatically when needed when missiles are expended (but from what i understand its not quick procedure around 1 1/2 minutes to reload). Barak doesnt have automatic reload but vessels fitted with barak system carry additional missiles (no word on how many) which are reloaded manually.

Only recently did IN even test kashtan-m for installation on the gorshkov that takes P-15A out of the picture also as i said it found kashtan unsatifactory and all reports point to gorshkov being fitted with barak rather than kashtan-m. So why will IN go for latter in the case of P-15A?

The whole point of having VL units is – among other things – that there is no reloading proces: all rounds are ready rounds. 1 fully loaded Kashtan unit has 32 missiles, of which 8 are ready rounds. In order to have an equivalent number of Barak missiles available, you would need to install not 1 but 4 8-cells launchers. So, you need to compare the space and weight taken up by those 4 units plus space and weight for 1 radar director) to that of 1 kashtan unit. In that sense, the Barak system is probably neither smaller nor lighter than Kashtan. Apart from giving the same number of missiles, however, this arrangement would provide a superior rate of fire.

Why wouldn’t IN go for Kashtan on P15A? After all, it is using it on Talwar class, it is planned for the first three P17 frigates. This irrespective of the fact that IN tested Kashtan M only recently! Both of which have a fully Russian suite of weapons. Most weaponry aboard P15A is likewise Russian. To avoid integration problems, it would make sense to stick with a fully Russian set of armaments, including Kashtan.

For a key unit like Gorshov (as well as Viraat for that matter) having a VL system may be preferable from the perspective of all round coverage. In fact, I wouldn’t at all be surprised to see it having both Kashtan and Barak systems eventually.

You would need 4 8-cell BARAK modules to get the same missile load as 1 Kashtan unit.

huh? how does that matter kashtan is fitted with only 8 missiles at one time and it can intercept 2 targets at one time the additional missiles are reloaded automatically when needed when missiles are expended (but from what i understand its not quick procedure around 1 1/2 minutes to reload). Barak doesnt have automatic reload but vessels fitted with barak system carry additional missiles (no word on how many) which are reloaded manually.

1) IT SEEMS TO ME THAT EVEN IF KASHTAN-M IS LIGHTER THEN KASHTAN, THIS SHOULD ONLY HELP RATHER THAN HINDER INSTALLATION ON DELHI/BANGALORE SHIPS.

Only recently did IN even test kashtan-m for installation on the gorshkov that takes P-15A out of the picture also as i said it found kashtan unsatifactory and all reports point to gorshkov being fitted with barak rather than kashtan-m. So why will IN go for latter in the case of P-15A?

What efforts to the suppress the IR signature/?

the barak module is far smaller weight and size wise than one the kashtan requires, it can be mounted on top of hull as its county destroyer without any ramifications. If latter wasnt true kashtan would have deployed on viraat and would have replaced ak-630 on most russian vessels. As for barak vs kashtan, IN wants standardization of its SAM system 10 more system have been ordered (3 of those for brahmaputra, the rest is probably intended for newer vessels).

You would need 4 8-cell BARAK modules to get the same missile load as 1 Kashtan unit. Given that BARAK is 2m long, I don’t think there is much space saved below deck if you install 4×8 barak instead of 1 Kashtan combat module.

actually no according to milparade article kashtan command module weights 9.5 tons and m weights 7.5 tons. I will try to post snapshot of it when it get time.

Here’s some extrapolation from that article :

Weights

1) Combat module + units of fire:
Kashtan: 12000 kg (radar + EO tracking)
Kashtan M: 10000 kg (radar + EO tracking
Kashtan M: 8000 kg (EO traking only)

2) Units of fire: 2500 kg (1000 rounds 30mm + 32 SAMS)

3) Combat module:
Kashtan: 9500 kg (radar + EO tracking)
Kashtan M: 7500 kg (radar + EO tracking
Kashtan M: 5500 kg (EO traking only)

4) Turret w/o units of fire (the above deck piece, excl. ammo/SAM):
Kashtan: 6254 kg (radar + EO tracking)
Kashtan M: 6254 kg (radar + EO tracking
Kashtan M: 4500 kg (EO traking only)

5) Remainder of system weight in combat module
Kashtan: 3246 kg (radar + EO tracking)
Kashtan M: 1246 kg (radar + EO tracking
Kashtan M: 1000 kg (EO traking only)

1) IT SEEMS TO ME THAT EVEN IF KASHTAN-M IS LIGHTER THEN KASHTAN, THIS SHOULD ONLY HELP RATHER THAN HINDER INSTALLATION ON DELHI/BANGALORE SHIPS.

2) IT ALSO SEEMS THAT SINCE WE’RE NOW ARGUING ABOUT WEIGHT RATHER THAN VOLUME AND FOOTPRINT, IT IS NOW ACCEPTED THAT 1 KASHTAN or 1 KASHTAN-M WOULD FIT ON DELHI/BANGALORE CLASS EN LIEU OF 2 AK630 or 1 AK630+6-8 VL BARAK.

😀

I doubt Kashtan M is much lighter and AFAIK the below decks requirements are unchanged. see here

actually no according to milparade article kashtan command module weights 9.5 tons and m weights 7.5 tons. I will try to post snapshot of it when it get time.

i dont think kashtan module is represented accurately in that plastic model will try to find image showing ayout of kashtan i used to have one b4 but cant find it. Anyway one of the problems with kashtan has been its size hence russia tried to find cheaper and smaller alternative ak-630m1-2, palma. I believe the newer kashtan-M model is supposed to few tons lighter and smaller than the orginal.
As for barak i believe more could be ordered that whats IAI reported along with few newspapers when news broke that US will sell few more orions to pakistan no word on how many.

I doubt Kashtan M is much lighter and AFAIK the below decks requirements are unchanged. see here

I believe the plastic Kashtan model is to the same scale as the AK630 model. But here are some pics of the real things so you can judge for yourself. As for content of module, it must have those reload cylinders so the ‘control room’ shown in the bottom pic must be limited in size and located between the cylinders, directly below the gunmount.

Palma is not exactly smaller, but perhaps lighter than Kashtan. No automatic relaods from magazine. AK-630m1-2 is heavier than regular AK630 due to 2 barrel clusters but has the same footprint as regular AK630.

here’s a pic of the kashtan-M on talwar class. in what way does it
differ from the new kashtan if any ?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Talwar17.jpg

nope thats not M it looks bit different here is a image of M along with some info also the website has info on ak-630/306 its manufacturer’s website.
http://www.shipunov.com/eng/kvnk/kashtan_m.htm

here’s a pic of the kashtan-M on talwar class. in what way does it
differ from the new kashtan if any ?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Talwar17.jpg

No, that’s the Palma picture. The Kasthan-MO will probably have the same electro-optical guidance.
I know which pictures you mean Jon. I’ve seen that too, in these pictures the controll room was also shown, with more reload canisters ready.

Wanshan,

Great pic, thanks.

A few questions though;

What’s the difference between the AK-300 and AK-630?

Is that a Kashtan-M picture to the very far right? Looks like a new mount with E/O system.

i dont think kashtan module is represented accurately in that plastic model will try to find image showing ayout of kashtan i used to have one b4 but cant find it. Anyway one of the problems with kashtan has been its size hence russia tried to find cheaper and smaller alternative ak-630m1-2, palma. I believe the newer kashtan-M model is supposed to few tons lighter and smaller than the orginal.
As for barak i believe more could be ordered that whats IAI reported along with few newspapers when news broke that US will sell few more orions to pakistan no word on how many.

of the five Rajputs(kashin), three are planned to be upgraded, the
other two will be retired at end of life. the three newest ranvir, ranjit, ranvijay…the older two being rajput (now a brahmos test vessel) and rana.

a new radar & combat system, brahmos and barak would somewhat improve these ships. I have heard they dont plan to change the old SA-N-1 SAM systems…apparently it manages to score hits on SS-N-2 Styx drones.

no, kashtan requires extensive deck penetration for storage of its missiles thats one of the reason why it hasnt fully replaced ak-630 in most russian vessels and also IN considered kashtan for viraat and Delhi but abandoned due to extensive refitting they would require to carry the system. As u noted all those vessels were redesigned to carry kashtan, P-15A in other hand was already designed to carry ak-630 so without have to redo the design its harder to fight kashtan onto it. Besides IN is in love barak, gorshkov was postponed by couple months because IN wanted barak rather than kashtan but finally relanted dont see why they would not fit barak rather kashtan onto their own vessel.

1x Kashtan vice 2x AK630: Mainly, Kashtan is taller than 2x AK 630 but has about the same footprint. To the extent there is room to go up, there need not be much difference in below deck volume required.

Udaloy I (2 sets of 2x AK 630 plus 1x Bass Tilt)

Udaloy II (2x Kashtan fire unit + 1x dedicated search radar)

Delhi (P15): (2 sets of 2x AK 630 plus 1x Bass Tilt)

Surely you could fit 1 Kashtan en lieu of 2 AK630s and 1 Bass Tilt (i.e. you got space to go up to accommodate the taller ‘box’ that Kashtan is)

As for Barak, IN has thus far ordered 17 systems. 1 each went onto INS Viraat, INS Ganga (Godavari class) and INS Delhi (Delhi class). With their respective P15 and P16 sisterships, this accounts for 7 systems. The Brahmaputra and sisterships (P16A) still lack a SAM beyond MANPADS. They are a likely further candidate. So, IMHO 10 out of 17 systems ordered are accounted for. Where will the remaining 7 systems go?

Talwar class: already has Kashtan
P17 “batch I” (Shivalik and first couple of consorts): weapons fit similar to Talwar class, has been depicted with Kashtan.
ex-Gorskov? Possible but unlikely as this has consistenly been depicted with 2 Kashtan incorporated in the front and rear of the island structure and the Russians have consistently opposed attempts to fit it with Barak.

Other possibilities:
ADS (1 planned)
P15A (3 planned)
P28 ASW corvettes (4-6 planned)
P17 “batch II” (?)
Rajput/Kashin upgrade (2-3?)

My assessment is that the remaining 7 Barak systems will go onto:
a) ADS + all 6 P28, or onto
b) ADS + first 4 P28 + 2 upgraded Rajput, or onto
c) ADS + 3 P15A + 3 upgraded Rajput

IMHO (a) is most likely. Like P16 and P16A, P28 will mainly be ASW unit and will have Barak (and only Barak) as self protection SAM. I think it is highly likely that all new built Shtil equipped ships will also receive Kashtan, like Talwar and P17 (Shivalik) classes.

the barak module is far smaller weight and size wise than one the kashtan requires

From what I’ve seen, Barak cells occupy very little space. It was quite surprising to be informed that a relatively miniscule cut on the Viraat’s aft deck was going to hold 16 cells!

Do you think the Russian Navy is rich? Well IN already has Kashtan on the Talwar frigates and most probably on Gorshkov in the future. So, that would count for the Standardisation too then.

well IN found kashtan peformance lacking according to ToI and but agreed to test Kashtan-M for the gorshkov 04 Jan,

“As part of the deal, the Russians also insisted on fitting the carrier with Kashtan missile systems that provides for self-defence of the ship against high precision weapons.

But India rejected the missiles as their performance was found to be not up to the mark during trials. The Russians then offered a modified Kashtan-M missile system.

Indian officials said the new system would be put through tests before taking a decision on their installation.

“They didn’t want Israeli or French missiles to be mounted on the ship but that will depend on how the new Kashkan missiles perform,” a senior official told IANS.”

But after some googling actually i like to correct myself it seems barak not kashtan-m will be fitted on gorshkov according to tribune report dated jun 2004 even thou reports from jan 2004 were indicating that IN has agreed to test kashtan-M for gorshkov it seems IN wasnt impressed with the tests.

Do you think the Russian Navy is rich? Well IN already has Kashtan on the Talwar frigates and most probably on Gorshkov in the future. So, that would count for the Standardisation too then.

the barak module is far smaller weight and size wise than one the kashtan requires, it can be mounted on top of hull as its county destroyer without any ramifications. If latter wasnt true kashtan would have deployed on viraat and would have replaced ak-630 on most russian vessels. As for barak vs kashtan, IN wants standardization of its SAM system 10 more system have been ordered (3 of those for brahmaputra, the rest is probably intended for newer vessels).