P40 thread

The original purpose of this thread was to note the suspension of the original.

I have taken the bait, and been drawn back into the previous discussion, which was not the intention.

Thanks to those who have made supportive comments; this thread is also now closed – pending developments.

For those who believe I have a personal agenda in this, you will have to take my word that I do not.

Bruce

I would have thought that human bones are quite dramatically different to anything else that is likely to be found in the desert.
As for the P-40 -the aircraft itself does seem to be rather overhyped. Whilst its been left reasonably alone for a long while -its not a sole survivor and its quite considerably damaged. The events regards where it ended up
still need examining and in fairness this isnt a heroic story -rather a tragic one of the many things that can go wrong in war.

As for Flt Sgt Copping -its another case where you have to wonder if he would have wanted the P-40 exhibited undoubtedly lying on a bed of sand or
repaired to as close as possible to the state it was in when he took off !

YOU CAN REALLY UNDERSTAND READING THIS WHY THE THREAD HAS BEEN ASKED TO BE SUSPENDED surely this is not a forum to start berating people and indulging i n one upmanship crikey chill out guys and let people like Bruce do his job etc

Indeed. As I said in #23; we do not know that RAFM did not locate/remove the remains found by Qattara. One hopes they did. It might help if RAFM confirmed one way or another if they located/removed those remains because that is the particular area of interest right now – not in the P40 itself. And it is hard to fathom why that blandly stating they have dealt with this matter, and that the case is subject to further investigation of the remains, could in any way put in jeopardy the outcome of the P40salvage, which current observers are not being unreasonable in assuming is RAFM’s priority rather than the pilot. That is an inevitable conclusion that some have drawn, and the pulling of the original thread has added to the ‘conspiracy theorists’ who see its removal as somehow linked to the matter of the remains….at least, partly, because it was pulled immediately that topic croppd up!

I would also agree that it is truly bizarre, if not utterly incredible, that the Italian team found remains that may be attributed to Copping. The coincidence of finding them the way they did seems too extreme….but…..we now know they are human. We also know that they were allegedly found with a portion of parachute, albeit that Captain Collins had already said he was satisfied the remains were not Flt Sgt Copping and it is also the case that the ‘personal effects’ have no obvious link to an RAF pilot.

Quite simply, I am not convinced by the information I am given; it is all to convenient. That the remains are human, I have no quarrel with.

None of which has anything to do with the original reason for closing the thread.

As neither of us were on site when the aircraft was moved, we simply do not know what has been done with regard to looking for the pilot, and it would be wrong to assume nothing has been done, when we simply do not know.

Exactly, Paul.

There is a certain unfortunate inevitability to events that follow therafter, although I appreciate that Key/Bruce were between a rock and a hard place in terms of the action(s) they took.

I have to say after the clamour for publicity i have witnessed on this forum regarding the P40 I am tempted to describe your comments as being more than a little hippocritical? I assume the ‘excesses’ of the mass media are tolerable whilst they serve to help in the recovery of the aircraft but not apparently the pilot? The purpose of that clamour for publicity on this forum was to fascilitate the speedy recovery of the aircraft and was certainly not done with the support of the family as they had still not been informed. The plan to document the recovery was very much about searching for and recovering Dennis Copping. Because as has been pointed out on a number of occaisions the MOD and RAFM have neither the interest or ability to do it, despite clearly having had the opportunity.

Well, criticise me if you want to, I don’t mind. My purpose in posting was to try and better understand the more general picture. I have my own views on the linking of airframes and human remains, but they are not relevant here. I am merely an interested by-stander.

I do note that the pulling of the original thread has probably now had the inverse affect of what was planned and the subject is being discussed more…

The law of unintended consequences in action

Pat,

Now you are taking my words out of context. I didnt imply he was a bounty hunter – here are my words:

As Tony says, time for a deep breath – this will get us nowhere.

Bruce

Bruce I don’t know qattarra personally but i know a few things about him. If you don’t know something just say you don’t. I am interested to know why you suggest that we should take his comments with a pinch of salt? Regardless of unanswered questions about search methods, the probability of finding the remains as they did in the timeframe they did etc etc the fact remains they have a track record in this field. They have discovered remains that warrant further investigation and the man delivering the information is a qualified doctor. That informatiom (i.e
the discovery of human remains )has now been comfirmed by reliable and qualified source.
So why should I take what he says with a pinch of salt?

Certainly not “too slow off the mark”….!! Those few who are aware of the behind-the-scenes story will testify that nothing could be further from the truth.

The documentary plan was in place from day one of the remarkable tale being revealed to the world. That it has not been made is, in my view, a lost opportunity. And that includes, importantly, a lost opportunity to carry out a forensic search for Flt Sgt Copping. As far as we know that has not happened, unless such information is being witheld from the world generally and the family specifically. As to the quality of the proposed film, and whilst that is now accademic, the broadcaster and production company are ‘top drawer’. I am certain it would have been an utterly astounding film seen by a world-wide audience.

In one respect you are correct, HP111. There was intrest expressed in making a documentary about its discovery and recovery, and more importantly the story of Flt Sgt Sgt Copping. This is what the family were very keen on.

I think it would have made a stupendous film, but all of that evaporated when the aircraft was recovered before any of that could be set up.

I am not sure why such a film would have been an “excess”, frankly.

Anyway, it didn’t happen. But that is not in the slightest anything to do with the thread being taken down.

Let me clarify that my use of the word “excess” was a personal opinion about the programme mentioned intruding (I write as someone with a bit of knowledge about genealogy). Whether it would have applied to the unmade programme would very much have depended on how it was made. Anyway, it seemed an obvious possibility in this day and age, but people were too slow off the mark apparently. Thanks for the comments.

Putting two and two together and getting five, it is beginning to sound like someone wanted to do a dramatic TV documentary a la “Who do you think you are” type of thing. At least with the airframe offsite, it reduces the scope for such excesses.

I have to say after the clamour for publicity i have witnessed on this forum regarding the P40 I am tempted to describe your comments as being more than a little hippocritical? I assume the ‘excesses’ of the mass media are tolerable whilst they serve to help in the recovery of the aircraft but not apparently the pilot? The purpose of that clamour for publicity on this forum was to fascilitate the speedy recovery of the aircraft and was certainly not done with the support of the family as they had still not been informed. The plan to document the recovery was very much about searching for and recovering Dennis Copping. Because as has been pointed out on a number of occaisions the MOD and RAFM have neither the interest or ability to do it, despite clearly having had the opportunity.

I don’t want to add to the polemics, on either side, but (and I have said this before when the thread was closed for a while) it still remains (…ed) the only effective means to keep in touch with what is happening. A public thread is not the same as a set of PMs.

Pat,

Now you are taking my words out of context. I didnt imply he was a bounty hunter – here are my words:

I do not know ‘Qattara’ or any of his team. He may be the best man out there; he may be little more than a bounty hunter; I simply dont know – and I dont make any assertions of any kind.

As Tony says, time for a deep breath – this will get us nowhere.

Bruce

In one respect you are correct, HP111. There was intrest expressed in making a documentary about its discovery and recovery, and more importantly the story of Flt Sgt Sgt Copping. This is what the family were very keen on.

I think it would have made a stupendous film, but all of that evaporated when the aircraft was recovered before any of that could be set up.

I am not sure why such a film would have been an “excess”, frankly.

Anyway, it didn’t happen. But that is not in the slightest anything to do with the thread being taken down.

Putting two and two together and getting five, it is beginning to sound like someone wanted to do a dramatic TV documentary a la “Who do you think you are” type of thing. At least with the airframe offsite, it reduces the scope for such excesses.

qattara is respected anesthesiologist, i am not sure how you can imply that he could be bounty hunter? I agree that there are many questions regarding the discovery of the remains found but we don’t have the full story and english is not qattaras first language and frankly i don’t think he feels the need to justify himself to the forum. The fact is the remains are human and without carrying out a DNA analysis we will never know. All we know at present is that they are human and are worthy of further investigation. Extraction of DNA could have been carried out during the recovery of the aircraft. Forensic services have been offered free of charge to the MOD and the RAFM. The idea that my comments could jeopardise a potential recovery is frankly nonsense. Why does it take the removal of the aircraft to facilitate a search for the pilot? The reality is that now the aircraft has been removed there is no motivation to return to the area of the crash and carry out a search. I nor anybody else knows if the remains discovered by qattara and his team are those of Dennis Copping. It may turn out to be unrelated we just don’t know and that is the point We don’t know and we have an obligation to find out. i for one hope they are his remains because if they aren’t any evidence at the crash site has by now been obliterated and the chances of being able to organise and fund a search are remote. There was great deal of interest expressed in documenting the recovery and coordinating an investigation and search of the area around the crash site. All of which would have been funded by the documentary team this was communicated to the RAFM at the highest level and the MOD. The chances of discovering Dennis Coppings’ remains would still have been remote but at least we could have tried. You say it has nothing to do with me well the last time i checked the RAFM was a national collection that means it belongs to all of us. The sacrifices made by Dennis Copping and his family were made for all of us too and that makes it all of our business. Does it have nothing to with the family, because no one has bothered to tell them anything either? PM sent by the way!

Guys chill out and let it play it’s course, there is obviously good reasons the thread has been pulled, and some of you will be the first to jump down throats when it has been cancelled / delayed because of XYZ… End of the day it has nothing to do with You AT ALL and if It takes this to see it safely in a museum and preserved then some of goals have been met… Pat you seem to think the fact that some things have gone quiet is some form of censorship.. far from it, how are you going to feel if it all goes wrong simply because of your irate postings…. The pilots remains are all in our minds, but if it takes the removal of the aircraft first, to remove what some see as a high value item from the frame, before the simple internment of the pilots remains, then so be it, if you want to rant and rave, do not berate Bruce, or regurgitate ill feelings, simply PM me and I will reply to them without jeopardising the final outcome, which you may be doing.

OK, firstly, there is no censorship here; a request was made to Key Publishing to suspend the thread pending developments in the story. With the approval of the Webmaster, that request was acceded to. We post on here subject to the approval of Key, and it is in their gift to remove threads if they see fit.

Over the years, there have been a number of instances of loose tongues on web forums causing real difficulty within the preservation world. Sometimes it is better not to openly discuss things where this might cause a problem to people on the ground.

This is one of the more important discoveries in the historic aviation field in many years. Accordingly it is most important that it is treated with the respect that it deserves.

I do not know ‘Qattara’ or any of his team. He may be the best man out there; he may be little more than a bounty hunter; I simply dont know – and I dont make any assertions of any kind. I do find it odd that at a start point some number of miles from anywhere, that they were able to start out, head in an arbitrary direction, and find remains that they then ascribe to the unfortunate pilot – all within a day or so of arriving on site!

Frankly, I think Denis Copping deserves better than that. In this case, there are, in my mind, clear responsibilities. We have a tangible reminder of the incident; the aeroplane. That needs to be (and has been) investigated, and any evidence that can be linked to the pilot must then be investigated. It is clear that his fate is far more important than just an aluminium shell, but only people on the ground can begin to determine his fate once they have been there. I dont believe that the assertions made by ‘Qattara’ can be taken with more than a pinch of salt, without a good deal more information than has been provided to date.

As we all know, many more people read this forum than post on here. I am quite certain that a number of those reading our exchange have not only been there, but have been actively involved in the investigation.

We have waited 70 years to find the fate of Denis Copping. All I am asking is that we are patient in learning the next part of the story.

There is incidentally, no problem in continuing your debate with the protaganists you mention – by private mail.

This is a fascinating story, and one that I hope can have a satisfactory outcome, but it wont ALL be played out on an internet forum.

Bruce

As I said at the beginning, it is removed pending developments. It would not have been done without good reason I can assure you. It will return!

I do think comparing removing a thread on an internet forum with the invasion of Poland is pushing similes a little far!

Bruce

I haven’t compared the invasion of Poland with your removal of the thread. I have clearly suggested that the removal is censorship. I have compared your statement that the removal is not censorship as being a bit like describing the invasion of Poland as a Holiday.

This forum has seen wild speculation (including that of the possible identity of the pilot), long before the aircraft was positively identified and the family informed, despite being cautioned that this should not happen and the feelings of the family should be respected. There has been a clamour to broadcast the information across the world in the misguided assumption that this would somehow help protect the aircraft and facilitate a speedy recovery, which has taken place, I believe prompted by a forumite, again before the family were informed. They actually found out when someone read it in a newspaper and called them. It has been debated whether it is worth searching for the remains of the pilot ad-nauseum, many (not all) drawing the conclusion that as it is difficult and unlikely that his remains may be found, it is not worth even trying, thus absolving all of our consciences of the responsibility. Thank goodness Flt Sgt Copping and his comrades didn’t draw this conclusion 70 years ago when faced with even more seemingly insurmountable and dangerous tasks, their likelihood of success was also small but thankfully they didn’t draw the conclusion that it was so difficult they shouldn’t bother!

There are things that are more important than the recovery of historic aircraft even one as important as this. Qattara and his team are the only people on this forum (as far as I am aware) who have been on the ground in the area of the crash and despite their considerable efforts and their discovery of human remains in the vicinity of the aircraft and passing all of the relevant information to the UK authorities no one from the MOD has even bothered to contact them. Frankly that is a disgrace and we should all be ashamed at the total lack of interest that has been shown by officialdom in recovering the remains of Flt Sgt Copping. The debt we owe him and his family is immeasurable and the effort required now to attempt to identify and recover his remains and show him the respect and dignity he deserves is a miniscule sacrifice in comparison. In the mean time a recovery of sorts has taken place and the aircraft and the slightly bizarre efforts to recover it seems to be in limbo. I believe this censorship sorry ‘brief interlude’ is more about covering the embarrassment of the people who have clamoured to recover the aircraft without a second thought for the recovery of the pilot, a recovery effort that looks increasingly like it was ill conceived and doomed to fail. In any event I fail to see how comments on this forum can conceivably influence the outcome of those efforts good, bad or indifferent.

Despite the numerous negatives, this thread was also being used as a means of exchanging information between parties who are still trying to identify those remains with, hopefully, a positive outcome for Flt Sgt Dennis Copping and his family. Parties like Qattara, L garey, Tangmere myself and others. The suspension of this thread is certainly not helping that particular cause. So in the absence of any evidence or explanation to the contrary as to why we are experiencing this brief interlude, I stick by my earlier assertion that this is censorship pure and simple and for all the wrong reasons. Reopen the thread. Freedom of speech is the cornerstone of democracy, at least what we have left of it. We should all now concern ourselves with trying to help where we can to do the right thing and identify, if possible, and facilitate the recovery of the remains of the most important person in this whole affair, Flt Sgt Dennis Copping.