Paint colours – again.

Middle Stone (among a range of colours) was declared obsolete 23-2-46.

Do you mean Middle Stone?

Is there a modern equivelant to the war time dessert sand colour used on aircraft in north africa during world war two?

What is the aeroplane?

Antoni,

Thanks for the extra info. The doping aspect is interesting because I’m trying to determine what would of been the correct spec/technique for doping this aircraft originally. It’s got some parts which are simply madapolam over a spruce frame and other areas which are madapolam over flat plywood. Not sure if it’s the same for both.

I’m guessing DTD 83A would be correct as we’re trying to represent an 1943 example and as mentioned I’ve seen that spec stencilled on a few components. the fact DTD 752 is postwar is again interested as I had a feeling the component carrying that stencil was from 1945-1950. It’s also got SRG above it which I know stands for “Synthetic Resin Glue” which replaced Casein glue in components. Apparently this was due to problems with the glue coming apart in the Far East and warm climates.

DTD 752 was (one of) the postwar standard cellulose finish(s).

DTD 83, IIRC, dated from 1935 and was first issued in 1936. It was a cellulose based material used to prime and then finish airframe components covered with linen fabric to BS Specification F1 in its latest issue. (Is F1 a specification for covering the aircraft rather than painting it?) It stated that any aeroplane doping scheme used would comply with comply with BS Specification D101 Properties of Aeroplane Doping Scheme in its latest issue and that the doping schemes would consist of:- pigmented solutions of nitrocellulose, pigmented solutions cellulose acetate for the first coats (is that what they call shrink coats?), and pigmented solutions of nitrocellulose for the finishing coats, or any such materials that might be approved from time to time. There were also different types for domestic and overseas, presumably overseas meant ‘hot places’.

In June 1945 DTD 83 was replaced with a series on new finishes, DTD 751-754, designed to give better infra-red protection for plywood and fabric covered aircraft, especially in the Far East. DTD 751 was intended for light aircraft with fabric covering, DTD 752 was for fabric covered components on wooden or metal aircraft, DTD 753 for aircraft with a geodetic structure, and DTD 754 for metal aircraft and components. Stores Reference 33B lists a number of undercoat materials, dopes and primers. Dope, tautening, transparent to DTD 751, applied to cellulose finishes on fabric and external plywood. Red DTD 752 and 753 applied prior to cellulose finishes on fabric. Clear DTD 753 applied prior to cellulose finishes on fabric.
Aluminium DTD 752 and 753 applied prior to cellulose finishes on fabric. Thinners, dope, anti-chill DTD 63, 751, 752, 753, 754, 766, and 785, for cellulose finishes and tautening dopes. There was also Aluminium (for fabric) cellulose DTD 751-753.

‘S’ stands for smooth and merely signifies that the paint has been manufactured with pigments ground to a smaller particle size then the original matt paints. From December 1940 all matt camouflage paints, with a few exceptions such as Special Night and Deep Sky, were manufactured as type ‘S’. There were also type ‘M’ paints, which were ultra matt, similar to Special Night, but they were only manufactured for a few colours and used in trials if they were ever used at all.

BS X.26, I would guess, is the modern BS specification for fabric covered aircraft, equivalent to either BS F.1 or D101. Am I right in thinking that nitrocellulose dope has been replaced by butyrate dopes as they are less flammable?

Lists of postwar colours and materials with Store Refs 33B can be found in Camouflage & Markings 1: RAF Fighters 1945-1950

Hmm interesting.

I read somewhere about “Scheme Z” used on Mosquito’s which had madapolam doped over the plywood. Apparently that was fixed to the skin with red shrinking dope, two half stregth, then three full strength coats. I wonder if that was something like DTD 752.

Sadly I don’t have any chance to get over to the UK until next year at least so won’t be able to visit Kew or anywhere else for more answers. 🙁

British Standards had no input, during the war; there’s a report, by a B.S. executive(?) in the National Archives, which says that they offered their services, but were politely told, “Thanks, but no thanks.” Post-war, some wartime colours were transposed into B.S.381C, while others fell by the wayside.
F.S. is another post-war designation, applying to U.S. colours only (though “FS—–” does appear, at times, on U.K.-produced paint,) and shouldn’t really be used for WWII researches.
DTD 752 isn’t just red dope, but “AEROPLANE DOPING SCHEME OF MEDIUM TAUTNESS,” which has been replaced, in around April 1986, by B.S. X.26 (sorry, no idea what that is.)
The RAF Museum’s library has a box packed with colour samples (some dating from wartime,) and occasional samples (e.g. P.R.Pink, and Malta’s home-grown 1935 shades) will be found in files in Kew.

All, especially Antoni, thanks for the additional info.

Seem I’ve gone well and truly down the rabbit hole with this one. From what I’ve been able to ascertain, using the BS 381c numbers is probably going to be close enough as long as the mixer is competent. I’ve read in various places that the colours issued were a guide and the various manufacturers used different pigments to get the result which weathered and faded differently plus the temperature and humidity when spraying affected the final colour. So, we’ve got some tolerance in that respect.

On the link I posted someone had an actually patch of original trainer yellow fabric and matched it to Humbrol Hu:154 “Insignia Yellow” which ties up with FS33538 as per Antoni’s post so we’ll go with that and hope it doesn’t come out to orange.

Also, the mention of DTD 83 struck a note as an original piece of fabric covered flap panel is marked DTD 83A TYPE-S so I now know it’s nitrocellulose dope under the paint 🙂 Also, a wing section which has a plywood panel is marked DTD 752 which I believe is red primer so that’s another mystery cleared up – though I bet the primer has some effect on the final colour when applied…

As an aside I recently got what purported to be British Standard Colour BS 381c No 298 olive drab (as a proxy for SCC15) from three different manufacturers . None of them matched each other………………

I know because I ran out of paint for the jeep at the last gasp and I was trying to match it – in the end it was easier to respray the whole body

Don’t even mention the hassle I’ve had trying to get paint to match Mike Starmer’s SCC2 colour chip

Paul Lucas did a couple of further books, one in the Guidelines C&M series (No 5, RAF Fighters 1945 to 1950 Overseas Based) and another called ‘Britain Alone’, covering the mid 1940 to late 1941 period, for the now defunct Aviation Workshop. Both worth getting if the subject interests you. Unfortunately, his later writings are in magazine articles, which are harder to find.

The RAFM British Aviation Colours book is great for the chips, and the APs it contains, but they are not the whole story and recent researchers at Kew have filled in many of the gaps and busted a few myths surrounding colours.

Just to point out Night isn’t a black, but a very,very dark blue!

Just buy a copy of Paul Lucas’s book ‘Camouflage & Markings’ – all that and more.. I am surprised Antoni did not mention the source.

My apologies, more summary than copy. I had saved the links but I was in a hurry as my dinner was nearly ready and forgot to insert them at the end.

Camouflage & Markings 2: The Battle For Britain http://www.guidelinepublications.co.uk/index.php?GOTO=140&PICFILE=140&STKNR=140&STRH=&ORDN=&RNZ=430007

Camouflage & Markings 1: RAF Fighters 1945-1950

http://www.guidelinepublications.co.uk/index.php?GOTO=141&PICFILE=141&STKNR=141&STRH=&ORDN=&RNZ=430007

You do not need to obtain a copy of BSS 381c from the BSI (expensive). Colour charts can be purchased from many companies; eg. http://www.unitedcomposites.net/jointpages/bs381cColours.htm

http://www.e-paint.co.uk/BS_colour_guides.asp

Do a search and you can find many pdfs that you can save but they can only be a guide and not an exact match. Most have a caveat about monitors and printers to that affect.

The IPMS Stockholm tables are quite useful as well as they give FS equivalents – which most paint suppliers can reproduce I think

Not always in the UK – a lot are not familiar with the system.

Graham – its called ‘British Aviation Colours of World War II’ and should be read in conjunction with the Paul Lucas”s book. The text in the RAFM book is purely taken from period AP’s – interesting but needs to be put in to context.

Bruce – I forgive you 🙂

FS equivalents are not precise and may not be a good match for as fussy a painter as OneEightBit. Better try to find the book RAF Colours published by Arms&Armour Press and the RAF Museum, as this contains paint chips (printed but good). Paul Lucas’s book is excellent but does not contain such colour matches.

First,

Sorry Steve, How could I forget you 🙁 That’s me off the Christmas card list!

For some reason that book passed me by – odd, as its the sort of thing I usually have!

Bruce

The IPMS Stockholm tables are quite useful as well as they give FS equivalents – which most paint suppliers can reproduce I think

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_uk.htm

Now there’s a reply – I might even have to save that for future reference!

Just buy a copy of Paul Lucas’s book ‘Camouflage & Markings’ – all that and more.. I am surprised Antoni did not mention the source.

Now there’s a reply – I might even have to save that for future reference!

Wartime camouflage colours were for the most part not taken from BS381 or BS381c. They were developed by the RAE and the Air Ministry kept the standards which were for both colour and surface finish. From 1940 the Ministry of Aircraft Production took over responsibility. The MAP standards were samples of paint applied to cards bound in small booklets. When Map was absorbed into The Ministry of supply, 1st April 1946, MoS took over responsibility. Standards took the form of painted cards, enclosed in an envelope and bound in a ring binder entitled Ministry of Supply Supply Standard of Colour Gloss and Smoothness for Aircraft Finishes Supplementary to BSS 381. It was not until 1964 that aircraft colours were included in BSS 381c. As a result colours that had become obsolete, e.g. Ocean Grey, were never included in BSS 381.

Dark Earth – included in the postwar MoS colours as Aircraft Finish No 13. In 1964 in was included in BSS 381c as colour No 450 Dark Earth. BSS 381 No 450 matches the original Dark Earth.

Dark Green – included in the postwar MoS colours as Aircraft Finish No 7. In 1964 in was included in BSS 381c as colour No 641 Dark Green. This appears to have been an error (the first digit classifies, i.e., 1 = blue, 2 = green and so on) which was corrected in the 1988 edition of BSS 381 when it was changed to No 241. The colour BSS 381 No 241 matches the original Dark Green.

Night – included in the postwar MoS colours as Aircraft Finish No 8. In 1964 in was included in BSS 381c as colour No 642 Night. BSS 381 No 642 matches the original Night.

Yellow – included in the postwar MoS colours as Aircraft Finish No 2. This colour appears to have a distinctly orange cast to it which was lost from the later high gloss yellow MoS Aircraft Finish No 405 dating from the mid-1950s. Neither of them were included in the 1964 edition of BSS 381c. This may have been because by 1964 Finish No 2 had been superseded by Finish No 405 and BSS 381c No 356 Golden Yellow (in BSS 381 since 1930) might have been considered a close match to No 405 to make its inclusion pointless. There is no BSS 381c match for Yellow. Closest FS 595 is 33538.

DTD 517 was a synthetic finish applied by factories and introduced aprox mid-war. In service it was to be maintained by DTD 314 a synthetic paint . DTD 83 was the standard for nitrocellulose dope and DTD 308 cellulose paint. It was forbidden to paint over a cellulose finish with a synthetic one and vice versa. So fabric could only be painted over with DTD 308 and never DTD 314 or DTD 517. Components had to be marked with the DTD specification of the paint used. This is why you see rudders etc marked DTD 308 or DTD 83 while the majority of the airframe is marked DTD 314 or DTD 517I. IIRC in was in 1942 that production of DTD 308 was stopped and it was absorbed into DTD 83.