Pakistan Navy news and discussion

Wheather Merlin would be superior or inferior to Scorpene will not be a criticall issue , In littoral warfare and in noisy water as Jonesy has correctly put it the better trained crew will win.

Instead of spending another $ 1.5 Billion in a spanky new design perceived to be technologically better than Scorpene . I would rather think that they should build more subs of Agosta 90B class , Its really a nice sub , proven & robust design and if it is available in numbers , It could tie up significant assets of the opposing force.

Maybe, but it is apparent to all that India is pushing for a sea based Nuclear detterant in the form of submarine and surface ship based IRBM’s and LACM’s. Such vessels would have to lurk in the Indian Ocean and Arabian sea, the only way pakistan could attempt to counter this is with long range SSK’s operating far from shore, in such a scenario the better boat pakistan can get the better.

Huntinghawk, this has previously been mentioned in the UK publication Warships International Fleet Review, it seems as if the PN is very interested. This should be no more risky for the French than the Type-214 was for the Germans.

Is there any other news source apart from the one posted above about the Marlins and Pakistan ? I couldn’t find any after a quick search.

Probably becouse the French have somewhat cleverly managed to design a sub that is better than the Scorpene that India is in the process of aquiring.
In fact the french have been very clever, exploiting the situation between two near third world countrys to sell 12 new submarines in a decade.

Pakistan gets Agosta’s so India gets Scorpenes so Pakistan gets Marlin, its whats called an arms race.

Scorpene is join venture the profit margin for france us low compared with what they can get with Marlin, also there is opposition to selling scorpene to pakistan from navantia (which is intent on selling more to India). Hence the Marlin, however since Marlin entirely new design and there is no other country procuring it unless DCN can convince them otherwise. The whole venture is very risky, IMO I don’t think even pakistan would procure them.

Last agosta is still under construction in karachi isn’t it not? Any launch dates yet?

“Of these, three will be manufactured in China, while one frigate will be built in Pakistan.”

Why build only one in Pakistan? It should be the other way around and Pakistan should build three of the frigates and China should only build the one.

Because Pakistan lacks a strong shipyard industry, as opposed to China. China’s experience can make these ships with quality more efficiently and quickly than Pakistan can. The actual plan is China will built 2 complete ships, 1 will be mostly built, then transferred to Pakistan for assembling till completion, and the last ship is to be fully built by Pakistan with assistance from Chinese engineers.

China has strong experience with both military and commerical ships.

Pakistan building the F22P FFG with full TOT, will be assist its desire for future self-sufficiency in military weaponry.

maybe the french need a product superior or equivalent to the highly rated U214 to compete. their fuel cell tech is still considered inferior to the siemens on U21x

germans had a ready market for U214 were they willing to sell.

Wheather Merlin would be superior or inferior to Scorpene will not be a criticall issue , In littoral warfare and in noisy water as Jonesy has correctly put it the better trained crew will win.

Instead of spending another $ 1.5 Billion in a spanky new design perceived to be technologically better than Scorpene . I would rather think that they should build more subs of Agosta 90B class , Its really a nice sub , proven & robust design and if it is available in numbers , It could tie up significant assets of the opposing force.

why are they going for a new design after only three Agosta90B last one made in karachi ? perhaps the A90B didnt meet their expectations, hence the churn.

Probably becouse the French have somewhat cleverly managed to design a sub that is better than the Scorpene that India is in the process of aquiring.
In fact the french have been very clever, exploiting the situation between two near third world countrys to sell 12 new submarines in a decade.

Pakistan gets Agosta’s so India gets Scorpenes so Pakistan gets Marlin, its whats called an arms race.

Speaking of subs, can someone ID this sub at Karachi ? And why is it in a (what seems to be) floating dry dock instead of regular dry dock ?

why are they going for a new design after only three Agosta90B last one made in karachi ? perhaps the A90B didnt meet their expectations, hence the churn.

1. If the Agostas are already fitted with combat systems capable of firing Harpoons as well as Exocets then what is the problem in applying the same solution in the new french sub?

– Fitting of a new panel in the warfare centre should be about it!.

2. Is going for a single hull sub a viable option for Pakistan navy?

– Cant think of all that many, Western, double hulled SSK’s?. Single hull is no problem.

3. Are Merlin/U-214 VLS capable?

– Not as currently designed.

4. Will Pakistan in the future go for more Agosta 90Bs?

– No reason why they shouldn’t. Good basic design and they apparently have the capability to build their own AND export any extra’s they knock together – winner!. Marlin may be sparkly new and ‘one-up’ on the Indian Scorpene’s but in shallow, noisy waters the better crew will win over any slight technological advantage between the boats!. IMO they’d be mad not to stick with the 90’s!.

Thank you for clearing it out A2S. And I suppose Pakistan is atlast paying some attention to the naval arm of it’s military.

France has cleared Armaris to offer three patrol submarines to Pakistan, lifting a bureaucratic barrier to the naval export company’s efforts to sell the planned Marlin SSK boat, a French defense executive said.

But there is another snag on the horizon: Pakistan wants its new subs to come with the Boeing Harpoon antiship missile, not the Exocet SM39 from European missile maker MBDA, the executive said. Acquiring the Harpoons won’t be the problem. White House officials notified Congress on May 31 that Boeing intends to sell 130 of the missiles, including 30 submarine-launched versions and related equipment, to Pakistan for $370 million. But offering the U.S. missile over the European one could draw opposition from the French government and other local firms.

Armaris is vying to supply Pakistan with three single-hulled, diesel-electric submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion, a deal likely to be worth $1 billion to $1.2 billion. Pakistani officials have said they also would consider the Class 214 submarine from Germany’s Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) or a Chinese sub. Italian and Russian bids also are expected.

“It will be a very, very tough competition,” the French executive said. India in October purchased six Scorpene boats from Armaris, and construction of the first boat began April 28 with the cutting of the first hull plate in Cherbourg, France, which will be sent to India, where Mazagon Docks will build and outfit the six boats under Armaris’ supervision as prime contractor.

A victory in Pakistan would likely mean a launch customer for the Marlin, which will be an upgrade to state-owned shipbuilder DCN’s 10-year-old Scorpene submarine technology, and a new entry to compete in a crowded market. Just getting this far has been a protracted process for Armaris, a marketing joint venture between DCN and Thales.

Before a French arms maker can offer weapons to a foreign customer, the company must receive the approval of the high-level Commission Interministérielle d’Etude et d’Exportation de Matériel de Guerre (CIEEMG). If buyer and seller then come to an agreement, the sale also must be authorized by the CIEEMG. In January, the CIEEMG withheld its approval, reportedly so as not to upset Pakistan’s regional rival India. Nevertheless, Armaris officials made an informal pitch to a Pakistani delegation several weeks later.

In February, Indian officials signed contracts to buy six Exocet-armed Scorpene subs and 43 Airbus airliners worth $2.5 billion at list prices. On May 10, Armaris received a formal invitation from Pakistan to bid on the three subs, and subsequently received the CIEEMG’s approval to do so, the defense executive said. A Pakistan official confirmed that authorization had been granted for the sale.
“It’s good news,” he said.

Officials from the French Defense Ministry and the Délégation Générale pour l’Armament procurement office were not immediately available for comment

Obstacles

Coming up with a deal that satisfies all concerned will be challenging. Among the difficult parts is “how to make an offer that does not upset India,” the xecutive said. Among other considerations, New Delhi, which plans to buy more than 100 jet fighters, is currently deciding between France’s Dassault Rafale and other foreign aircraft, including the F-16 built by Lockheed Martin, the F/A-18E/F by Boeing, the JAS 39 Gripen by Sweden’s Saab and the MiG-29M, offered by Russia’s Irkut.

Another potential stumbling block is Islamabad’s request for technology transfer as part of the sub deal, which raises the spectre of Pakistani defense firms soon competing against French ones.

Yet another sticky wicket is Pakistan’s interest in the Harpoon missile. Islamabad wants the Harpoon because it offers longer range, more accuracy, and potentially fewer export approval delays than the Exocet, the Pakistani official said. But French industry has been given to understand its government’s export committee will never authorize the Marlin sale if it means putting a U.S. weapon on a French platform, the executive said. A pick of the Harpoon would pose the question: Who would pay for the weapon’s integration, said Robbin Laird, an analyst with ICSA, a consulting firm based here and in Washington. It was unlikely Pakistan had the money to pay for the work and France would balk at paying to integrate an American weapon on a French submarine, he said. “We wouldn’t,” he added.

Even if Pakistan were to pay for the integration, France would ask whether it was in DCN’s interest to do it, he said. An alternative would be a buy of a German boat, he said. But the terms would have to be right for German industry, which is unlikely to sell at a loss. As for whether the Harpoon was a better weapon, much depended on the Pakistan Navy’s mission requirement, Laird said.

Pakistan already operates French subs, thanks to a 1994 deal to buy and build three Agosta 90B Khalid boats. The first was built by DCN at its Cherbourg yard, the second was assembled in Karachi Naval Dockyard, and the third boat is being fitted with the Mesma air-independent propulsion system, also in Pakistan.

These subs were sold with Exocets. They are capable of firing the Harpoon, but this has not been tested, the French executive said. “They are fitted for, but no tests have been done,” he said. The schedule for the new sub program is tight. Formal offers are due in July, and Pakistan wants to pick a winner by the end of the year.

But the French executive said that preparing the offer could take six months, thanks to Pakistan’s unusually detailed specifications — for example, the number of propeller blades. “That’s the first time I have seen that,” the executive said.

“The Indian Ocean is an ocean we’re very interested in and we want to continue engaging with all the countries in the region, including Pakistan,” said Rear Adm. Joseph Walsh, the director of the U.S. Navy’s Submarine Warfare Division. “It’s in our interest that our friends and allies have robust submarine and stronger naval capabilities in general.”
Indian defense ministry officials said they would watch the development carefully and cautiously.

One Indian analyst said France’s decision to allow Armaris to pitch its submarine to Pakistan seemed baffling, because it would intensify the future debates when India considers buying a French weapon. •

Vago Muradian in Washington and Vivek Raghuvanshi in New Delhi contributed to this report.

Source: Defence News

A few questions from the Pakistanis onboard:

1. If the Agostas are already fitted with combat systems capable of firing Harpoons as well as Exocets then what is the problem in applying the same solution in the new french sub?
2. Is going for a single hull sub a viable option for Pakistan navy?
3. Are Merlin/U-214 VLS capable?
4. Will Pakistan in the future go for more Agosta 90Bs?

Source: DNA

Can anyone from Pakistan confirm this piece of news?

No old Pak submarines for Bangladesh

DHAKA (Online) – The Bangladesh government categorically denied Monday a report that it had received two old submarines from the Pakistan Navy as gifts, an official spokesman said.
The spokesman, quoting a statement from the Bangladesh Navy, said no deal was struck between the two countries on the submarines during Bangladesh Prime Minister Khaleda Zia’s official visit to Pakistan from February 12-14 this year.
The spokesman was commenting on a website report from New Delhi that Pakistan had agreed to refurbish and repaint two of its old submarines and present them as a gift to its Dhaka. The Pakistani gift would have given the fledgling Bangladesh Navy its first undersea capabilities.
Source www.nawaiwaqat.com

“Of these, three will be manufactured in China, while one frigate will be built in Pakistan.”

Why build only one in Pakistan? It should be the other way around and Pakistan should build three of the frigates and China should only build the one.

Well Nelson may be it has to do something with the Shipbuilding power that Pakistan has versus tht of China, considering the Target time tht the navy has to put these frigates in service.

being 36 yrs old its obvious BD will use them for training purposes only before potentially buying a couple of Songs from PRC or Kilos from Russia.

NEW DELHI: In a strategic decision that Indian policy planners are trying to comprehend, Pakistan has agreed to gift two of its old submarines to Bangladesh Navy.

Authoritative sources in the establishment told DNA that Pakistani authorities agreed to the gift when Bangladesh Prime Minister Begum Khaleda Zia visited Pakistan from February 12 to 14 earlier this year.

Pakistani authorities would refurbish and refit two of its Daphne class submarines for the Bangladesh Navy under the agreement.

Source: DNA

Can anyone from Pakistan confirm this piece of news?

I guess the air launched missile is meant for the P-3c’s. On what ship would the surface launched missiles go? Would they put it on the older type-21’s or can they be put on the chinese frigates pakistan is obtaining.

from JDW 22 Nov 2005

In Brief – Pakistan gets additional Harpoons
Boeing has been awarded a USD62.5 million Foreign Military Sales contract for 50 Harpoon all-up-round (AUR) missiles, consisting of 40 Tactical Block II Air-launch AUR missiles and 10 Tactical Block II Grade B (surface-launched) AUR missiles destined for Pakistan. The contract also includes 20 MK607 Air-launch AUR containers and 10 MK631 Canister AUR containers for Pakistan; two Exercise Sections for Australia and one for Japan; and two MK592 Exercise Section Shipping Containers for Australia and one for Japan. This work is due to be completed in June 2006.

Its possibly a typo.

“Of these, three will be manufactured in China, while one frigate will be built in Pakistan.”

Why build only one in Pakistan? It should be the other way around and Pakistan should build three of the frigates and China should only build the one.

Pakistan-China joint naval exercise next Week

Pakistan-China joint naval exercise next Week
Thursday, 17 November 2005

BEIJING (China): Pakistan and China will hold second joint naval exercise next week in the Arabian sea close to Karachi coast. A fleet of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Navy has already left towards the Arabian Sea via northern zone to join the Pakistan Navy.

Credible sources said here that the Chinese naval fleet comprised two ships, a missile destroyer and helicopters. It will be the first ever combined maritime drill by the Chinese navy in alien sea areas, likely to take place from November 21 to 24.

The two navies will focus on items in non-traditional areas, such as joint search-and-rescue operation. A large number of sailors and officers from both sides will take part in the exercise in the efforts to strengthen their decades old military-to-military relations and further enhance their professional skill.

Perspective

The two countries conducted their first-ever exercise in November 2003 near the Shanghai coast. It was the first time Chinese naval forces held a joint exercise with a foreign counterpart since the founding of the People’s Republic of China.

Now the Chinese side will be visiting the Pakistan’s seawater to have the similar drill.

Sources say, as a part of long-standing bilateral cooperation in the defence field, the two countries have been maintaining frequent exchanges to benefit from each other experience, strengthening their defence potential.

The cooperation between two navies covered various areas of the mutual interest.

According to a decision taken in July this year, China will provide four F-22P advanced quality frigates to Pakistan by 2013.

Of these, three will be manufactured in China, while one frigate will be built in Pakistan. It is hoped that the first frigate will be available to Pakistan Navy within a period of three and half years.

Besides this, the Chinese side will also provide six medium-size standardised helicopters (Z-9C) to Pakistan Navy.

Source