Pakistan Navy Professionalism at High Seas

Aaaand off topic it went.

@Anant, and those who responded… what part of no nationalistic trolling wasn’t clear ?

@J Boyle: I’m an optimistic guy 😉

Thread locked.

It seems evidence but as with any tv report, if you take it out of context it gets new meaning: what – if anything – happened (right) before this video was shot?

Thats correct Wanshan. We really have no way to figure out what happened exactly prior to the video was shot unless the Pakistanis come out with videos showing Indian hampering of “relief/rescue operations” prior to this “brushing” incident.

The Indian Navy has mentioned damaging of Helicopter nets of INS Godavari and has submitted pictures to concerned authorities in Pakistan in its protest.
This is videographic evidence of the same.

Also, how can one objectively determine from this footage whether a) the Babur overtook and turned to port into Godavari or b) the Godavari reduced speed, dropped back and turned to starboard, cutting of Babur?

True. However an important point here would be, What was PNS Babur doing so close to INS Godavari in the first place ?

I’m sure there would be some rules governing (safe) passage of military vessels at high seas ..

As we can clearly see in the video, PNS Babur initially caught up on INS Godavari, sailed parallel to it for a bit and then did its “brushing” maneuver.

Reason why I inferred that its a deliberate PN attempt to hit Godavari was because @ 3:11 most probably the guy who is shooting the vid is heard saying “maar liya maar liya, side maar raha hai.Peeche ho jao saare .. maar liya” … which means ” we are hitting him, we are hitting him ..hes hitting them from the side.. fall back all of you .. he’ll hit them … hes hit them” and then again “hes hit them “

This is the Translation that I managed from whatever was audible from 3:11 to 3:28 in the vid. The audio post that are Allah o Akbar chants …

My translation *may* not be absolutely correct word to word as the dialect is some punjabi/urdu which I am not THAT well versed.

Pakistani members of this board can clarify if i’m mistaken …

From the translation that I have posted above it seems that clearly it was PNS Babur that turned into INS Godavari thereby resulting in the “brushing” ..

*** Ignoring PPP’s rumour mongering and nuclear talk, which btw is completely OT for this thread ! ***

My point is, Indian Navy came there looking to take over the operation for PR purposes back home. Pakistani Navy being the opposing force did not help either.

When one eagle tries to snatch some other eagle’s catch, it always results in some ruffled feathers!

Both of them need to grow up.

Thats clearly wrong, so the Indian Navy came to “take over the operation”, says who?

The Navy sent them there to *assist* if *required*, based on orders from the Govt of India. Which in turn was forced to act, based on public opinion.

They hailed the MV Suez (which had a Pakistani captain) – no response. They hailed the Babur – no response and then this dangerous business. And they left. If they intended to “take over the operation”, the Godavari does pack more punch than the Babur, last I remember. It could have done more. It did not, it left.

Furthermore, you posit humanitarian options as some sort of “eagles catch” – how is that? This is expensive, serious work – intended to keep SLOC open. No glory in it bar the occasional job well done pat on the back thing.

Lastly, even if all you said was correct, and the Indian Navy arrived on the scene and Babur regarded it as “stealing its glory” – does that justify such dangerous antics.

No – I dont think both Navies need to grow up. If anything, that Captain of Babur who did something so crazy, needs to be hauled up and docked, unless he was asked to behave in such a manner.

Having your crew stand around chanting while you try to play chicken with another warship is not professional. He could have sunk both ships causing significant loss of life, and over what.

Isn’t it perfectly reasonable to assume that two navies in close proximity, who might in the near future be in open conflict with each other, would have similar levels of training and professionalism (almost certainly higher in certain areas, than European navies who do not have the same training needs)? After all if one side or the other neglected training then they are placing themselves at a distinct disadvantage. How this professionalism might stack up against other non-peer navies operating in different parts of the world would be difficult to establish for most of us here, we could maybe look at what information is available on their training, and possible first hand accounts of what observers saw in joint exercises and exchange, but I put money down that it would be virtually impossible to find an impartial assessment.

The Royal Navy likely lacks the critical mass of ships to train it crew and officers as much as they would like, but we are recognised as being top tier in minesweeping, ASW and submarine warfare (the US for example sends their officers on the perisher course), of course we now face the prospect of being behind China in experience of fast jet carrier operations given that we are gapping our capabilities for nine odd years just as China gets ready to launch their first carrier (making aspects of our institutional experience less than the new boys on the block when it comes to naval aviation).

it is you who flamed- the response was actually very subtle and to the point. WIthout having interacted with any IN person you claim to know what level of professionalism they have. :rolleyes:

and then you expect others to take your biased and prejudiced posts as being anything but trolling. :rolleyes:

I merely posted the default position that must be assumed, they are equal unless you can prove otherwise, which clearly you cannot. You have however posted a biased opinion, by favouring one force over the other.

My point is, Indian Navy came there looking to take over the operation for PR purposes back home. Pakistani Navy being the opposing force did not help either.

When one eagle tries to snatch some other eagle’s catch, it always results in some ruffled feathers!

Both of them need to grow up.

Thats clearly wrong, so the Indian Navy came to “take over the operation”, says who?

The Navy sent them there to *assist* if *required*, based on strict orders from the Govt of India, that is it.

They hailed the MV Suez (which had a Pakistani captain) – no response. They hailed the Babur – no response and then this dangerous business. And they left. If they intended to “take over the operation”, the Godavari does pack more punch than the Babur, last I remember. It could have done more. It did not, it left.

Furthermore, you posit humanitarian options as some sort of “eagles catch” – how is that? This is expensive, serious work – intended to keep SLOC open. No glory in it bar the occasional job well done pat on the back thing.

Lastly, even if all you said was correct, and the Indian Navy arrived on the scene and Babur regarded it as “stealing its glory” – does that justify such dangerous antics.

No – I dont think both Navies need to grow up. If anything, that Captain of Babur who did something so crazy, needs to be hauled up and docked, unless he was asked to behave in such a manner.

Having your crew stand around chanting while you try to play chicken with another warship is not professional. He could have sunk both ships causing significant loss of life, and over what.

Guys, lets leave the RN out of this. It started as a rejoinder to an intended bait, and lets drop it before the bait serves its purpose of trolling the discussion into an irrelevant sidetrack.

The RN is not the issue here, besides which the IN & RN both enjoy a decent professional camaraderie.

Agreed:)

Guys, lets leave the RN out of this. It started as a rejoinder to an intended bait, and lets drop it before the bait serves its purpose of trolling the discussion into an irrelevant sidetrack.

The RN is not the issue here, besides which the IN & RN both enjoy a decent professional camaraderie.

Quoted 🙂

so what ? :rolleyes:

I dont think this part is under dispute at all. The Indian ship was definitely a latecomer to the scene, and that too because the Indian media attacked the Govt nonstop that despite the IN being on piracy patrol, there were no IN ships in the vicinity. Hence the GOI was forced to respond by asking the Navy to send a ship to see if it could offer assistance. The issue, of course, is what happened thereafter.

This business of ‘kicking INS xxx” /almost ramming it, is pretty dicey. In reality, both ships could have been severely damaged and worse.

My point is, Indian Navy came there looking to take over the operation for PR purposes back home. Pakistani Navy being the opposing force did not help either.

When one eagle tries to snatch some other eagle’s catch, it always results in some ruffled feathers!

Both of them need to grow up.

So really your only response to my statement is to randomly bring Britain into this, when Britain is actually unrelated. So, we wonder, why did you attack the professionalism of the British forces? Perhaps it is because I am from Britain, and you thought perhaps you might be able to get some revenge for me daring to give an impartial, on-topic opinion, instead of a pro-Indian one that would be more suited to your own world view. Your desperate attempt to provoke me has certainly confirmed to me that my original statement is quite likely to be correct, and confirmatory feedback is always useful 😎

it is you who flamed- the response was actually very subtle and to the point. WIthout having interacted with any IN person you claim to know what level of professionalism they have. :rolleyes:

and then you expect others to take your biased and prejudiced posts as being anything but trolling. :rolleyes:

It seems evidence but as with any tv report, if you take it out of context it gets new meaning: what – if anything – happened (right) before this video was shot?

Also, how can one objectively determine from this footage whether a) the Babur overtook and turned to port into Godavari or b) the Godavari reduced speed, dropped back and turned to starboard, cutting of Babur?

No oibjective to flame, simply curious to here various answers/arguments.

it was a video taken by a PN person and uploaded by Pakistanis. How on earth can one say that the Godavari which was most clearly being chased by the PNS Babur be responsible for this when it most clearly flouts international regulations of not approaching a ship from behind in the manner that the PNS Babur did ?

No fast jets I agree but it does have Submarines that can make a gawd almighty bang in Countries that upset us!:)

ROTFL :D:D:D

Guess what “Royal” Navy submarine made a gawd almighty bang in Libya??

Its the USS Florida , USS Scranton and USS Providence!!

Good show there Sir! Royal indeed. :p

Anyways Indian navy was not in the area and isn’t a member of Task Force 151, so Pakistan Navy was given the duty of escorting the hijacked ship to safe waters.

I dont think this part is under dispute at all. The Indian ship was definitely a latecomer to the scene, and that too because the Indian media attacked the Govt nonstop that despite the IN being on piracy patrol, there were no IN ships in the vicinity. Hence the GOI was forced to respond by asking the Navy to send a ship to see if it could offer assistance. The issue, of course, is what happened thereafter.

This business of ‘kicking INS xxx” /almost ramming it, is pretty dicey. In reality, both ships could have been severely damaged and worse.

No fast jets I agree but it does have Submarines that can make a gawd almighty bang in Countries that upset us!:)

If they manage to get off the sand banks!

Sorry couldn’t resist.

Nothing is “Royal” about a navy which cannot even maintain a squadron of fast jets for a start.

No fast jets I agree but it does have Submarines that can make a gawd almighty bang in Countries that upset us!:)

[QUOTE=Anant;1782681]

Isn’t this part of the hostage rescue drama?

Could you give a link which proves your hypothesis that Indian navy tried to snatch operation from Pakistani Navy?

It’s not a hypothesis on my part, I read it in a newspaper around that time.

Anyways Indian navy was not in the area and isn’t a member of Task Force 151, so Pakistan Navy was given the duty of escorting the hijacked ship to safe waters.

Here’s a link from an Indian newspaper.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/nervous-govt-pulled-godavari-off-mission-to-help-mv-suez/806019/2

”Acting as per the international convention that has governed anti-piracy operations in the region for the past three years, the Indian Navy contacted friendly navies in the region to determine which warship was closest to respond to Suez’s call. Contact was also made with the US-initiated Combined Task Force (CTF) 151, a multination coalition of warships that patrol the Gulf of Aden.

One of the first warships that responded, officials said, was PNS Babur, which is part of CTF 151. The Pakistani warship declared that it was proceeding to escort the Suez. As per the laws of the sea, the other warships in the region then continued on their patrols, staying on alert for other piracy attempts.

However, late on Wednesday, apparently after repeated reports on Indian TV that a Pakistani naval ship had reached the Suez while India was “taking no action” and “letting down” its citizens on board, the government directed the Indian Navy to send in a warship to “establish contact” with the Suez, sources said.”

Firstly, you should be sorry, and I accept your apology, thank you. My comments regarding the Pakistani and Indian Navy, in a topic about the professionalism of those navies, is perfectly valid. Discussions of the British Navy are not valid, and have only been made with the intent to provoke anger, or worse to deter others from expressing a view that doesn’t conform to the Indian view else they and/or their country will be flamed.

Nice rant there and you seem to have a lot of time on your hands to post a lot of fancy words and take umbrage. Who appointed you the sole arbiter for the British Navy and furthermore, to take umbrage on their behalf and be angry? Seems to me to be a rather sophomoric tough guy approach.

There is nothing wrong with my signature, and I have discussed this with the administrator on a previous occasion.

Yeah, an impartial video mocking the French, never mind your own posts whenever any discussion comes into the picture. What happened to that line “French UAV technology” – whats the purpose of that?

I am perfectly impartial when it comes to discussing India and Pakistan, though who are you to be telling others who is and isn’t impartial? Who made you judge and jury? As for the French, where is my topic “about the French”, there is no such topic, such topics are not even permitted on this forum. Your implication that I dislike the French is something I find deeply offensive, as I have no bad feeling towards towards the French. It is good that you have apologised for this, but I think it would be better in future if you just leave the statement out completely and focus on the topic, rather than apologise and then make these kinds of statements.

A lot of verbose talky talk there, but in your own words, you claim to be impartial when discussing India and Pakistan, when you are anything but. In prior threads, you have been busy flaming away at several Indian members & engaging in verbal fisticuffs. Clearly, no bias there. As to those posts and the ones about others, you can trawl through your own posts.

Second, before claiming to be offended for it being noted that you have a bee in your bonnet against the French, take a look at your signature sometime. It belongs to the kindergarten and reeks of a tendency to score one ups not anyone serious.

Coming to judge and jury and what not, nothing of the sort, just showing you the same courtesy which you show everyone else.

And no I didn’t apologize to you – perhaps you missed the point but let me make it clear to you. That “sorry” was clearly – “nice try, but it didn’t work” viz. your attempt at equivocation and trying to posture as being better than Anant, which you clearly aren’t.

Ahh so you are an Indian, that rather explains you attitude in the first paragraph.

Heh, this line of yours shows your attitude clearly, no hint of a bias there..clearly. So you insert a throw away line about the Indian nuclear structure, I respond factually, and that makes me an “Indian” and hence my “attitude”.

If anything, it shows *your* attitude, which is patronizing, rude and boorish. Though, I daresay there are enough UK members in this forum with standards better than yours, and which makes your behaviour, yours alone and not because you are British.

Nothing is “Royal” about a navy which cannot even maintain a squadron of fast jets for a start.

Quoted 🙂

If you must bring The United Kingdom into this would you please refer to our Navy as the Royal Navy.

Nothing is “Royal” about a navy which cannot even maintain a squadron of fast jets for a start.