Pakistan's Missiles and Strategic News/Disscussions

what is the range of this missile ? any info about the powerplant ?

which platform was it tested on ?

It was tested from a Mirage-III and the range was 350 KM. The production model will have a range of 400 KM.

I wonder if any MUPSOW tech is in the Ra’ad, engine included? There was a lot of business conducted in the late 1990’s between the two countries.

RA’AD air launched cruise missile

what is the range of this missile ? any info about the powerplant ?

which platform was it tested on ?

RA’AD air launched cruise missile

[color=red]You’re both right, and both wrong. Qsaark has valid points, but this is not the proper place to air them. Take that stuff to the General Discussion board unless it directly and specifically impacts the discussion at hand.[/color]

According to AFP, Pakistan tested the Babur/Hatf-7 today. A guy from the defense ministry claimed the missile has a range of 700 kilometers.

considering that Jf-17 was quoted as less than $15 million for plaaf, I’d say J-7G would have to be a lot cheaper. less than $5 million is the number that’s mostly floated around. J-7G -> WP-14+KLJ-6E, F-7N -> WP-13B+SY-80. clearly superior

Just an observation.
While PLAAF was operating J-7E in its basic form, CAC had already offered a more advanced version, i.e. J-7MG, for export (PAF pilots were test flying it as early as 1997). J-7G a domestic equivalent of J-7MG/PG with similar upgrades was developed at a later date and inducted into PLAAF only in 2004.

We have no way of knowing how much J-7G costs for PLAAF. Since missile and spares are not included in regular PLAAF precurement budget but by general armament division. What we do know is that performance wise J-7G and J-7Ni is roughly similar while soviet mig-21 export and domestic mig 21 differes by a magnitude.

considering that Jf-17 was quoted as less than $15 million for plaaf, I’d say J-7G would have to be a lot cheaper. less than $5 million is the number that’s mostly floated around. J-7G -> WP-14+KLJ-6E, F-7N -> WP-13B+SY-80. clearly superior

I’ve already made the comparison…

I disagree with the assessment that J-8H is inferior to F-8IIM

LOL the J-8F has no name recognition going for it. Even if China were to offer it it won’t make any difference.
On the other hand the F-8IIM is widely known multirole aircraft. It doesn’t even need any publicity but it still failed.

huh? F-8IIM a none existent aircraft is now widely known? How many people do you think know about F-8IIM? It doesn’t need publicity? Do you honestly think people buying the planes would look at F-8IIM as just a display of J-8II. Given the two J-8II variants in J-8F and F-8IIM, there is such a huge disparity in performance between the two that no amount of publicity can cover up.

You are obviously going to get more profit out of an export sales. For example, the one to Nigeria. Does anyone really believe PLAAF pays $11 million for each J-7G? (and it uses a more powerful engine than the export F-7s)

We have no way of knowing how much J-7G costs for PLAAF. Since missile and spares are not included in regular PLAAF precurement budget but by general armament division. What we do know is that performance wise J-7G and J-7Ni is roughly similar while soviet mig-21 export and domestic mig 21 differes by a magnitude.

A lot of products are advertised before they are developed. You should be comparing them with domestic products also in development at that time.

I’ve already made the comparison…

As for J-8F, it’s a much better fighter than F-8IIM, that’s why.

LOL the J-8F has no name recognition going for it. Even if China were to offer it it won’t make any difference.
On the other hand the F-8IIM is widely known multirole aircraft. It doesn’t even need any publicity but it still failed.

asaracen can you please tone it down and let go of it? I would really appreciate it.

Just a tidbit here. The Chinese AWE&C system for PAF is being refered to as ZDK-03.

Does anyone know which institutes are part of CETC? I could only find the 9th institue which mainly works with ferrites and their applications.

i think that ZDK-03 might be pakistan name of chinese AEWCS just like Fc-20 is for J-10

I think you have a wrong concept of Chinese export system. China never develop a monkey version as in the case of USSR where the plane is a true downgrade of capabilities. Chinese only offer different systems for export than the systems intended for PLA. But it does not mean that Export product is always a bastadized version and on the contrary Chinese export products were mostly more advanced than domestic counterparts due to imposed performence requirements of export customers while PLA was cutting cost. (ex PLZ45 for Kuwait vs Type 83 for PLA,)

You are obviously going to get more profit out of an export sales. For example, the one to Nigeria. Does anyone really believe PLAAF pays $11 million for each J-7G? (and it uses a more powerful engine than the export F-7s)

FBC-1 came before Jh-7A was ever developed. FBC-1 was promoted for export in 1998 but due restricted utility, performance and fact that even PLA had rejected it, FBC-1 was obsolete for the export market.

F-8IIM if it was even intended for export came before J-8F was finalized. Plus J-8IIM had the advantage of being publicized by the Russians.
If the much touted J-8IIM could not attract any customers how would J-8F do any better?

A lot of products are advertised before they are developed. You should be comparing them with domestic products also in development at that time. As for J-8F, it’s a much better fighter than F-8IIM, that’s why.

Again, they are offering a new variant of F-8IIM now that is a lot different from the one in 1996 and it’s still nowhere to J-8F. I don’t know why you keep on insisting that it’s same as the one from 1996.

Looking even back in 1996, it just had a test flight, that doesn’t mean it was actually ready to be delivered then. They were still developing it. You can make your own judgment on whether you think J-8H (which first flew in 1995) is better or F-8IIM. I’ve made my. PLAAF sure put orders in for J-8H but none for F-8IIM.

yeah, with old J-7s, what a surprise.
Do you know how good J-8F is?
and funny that you mentionned, JH-7A, cause FBC-1 as explained by Crobato is also downgraded compared to JH-7A.

I think you have a wrong concept of Chinese export system. China never develop a monkey version as in the case of USSR where the plane is a true downgrade of capabilities. Chinese only offer different systems for export than the systems intended for PLA. But it does not mean that Export product is always a bastadized version and on the contrary Chinese export products were mostly more advanced than domestic counterparts due to imposed performence requirements of export customers while PLA was cutting cost. (ex PLZ45 for Kuwait vs Type 83 for PLA,)

FBC-1 came before Jh-7A was ever developed. FBC-1 was promoted for export in 1998 but due restricted utility, performance and fact that even PLA had rejected it, FBC-1 was obsolete for the export market.

F-8IIM if it was even intended for export came before J-8F was finalized. Plus J-8IIM had the advantage of being publicized by the Russians.
If the much touted J-8IIM could not attract any customers how would J-8F do any better?

Again, you have no idea of what the term means but you still insist on using it. If you understand military exports and the history of Chinese aircraft, you would know that the F-8IIm was first offered in 1996. The F-8IIM offered was better than any known variant of J-8. The J-8F appeared years after the F-8IIM.

Again, it is pure idiocy to think in this way. It’s tantamount to saying that the F-15C is a “monkey” version of F-15E. They are two different variants from two different time periods.

Again, they are offering a new variant of F-8IIM now that is a lot different from the one in 1996 and it’s still nowhere to J-8F. I don’t know why you keep on insisting that it’s same as the one from 1996.

Looking even back in 1996, it just had a test flight, that doesn’t mean it was actually ready to be delivered then. They were still developing it. You can make your own judgment on whether you think J-8H (which first flew in 1995) is better or F-8IIM. I’ve made my. PLAAF sure put orders in for J-8H but none for F-8IIM.

There are far more credible stories of Iranians disliking any Chinese aircraft (and who wouldn’t when you have the F-14) much less an old Soviet-style aircraft like the J-8II.

I absolutely doubt that the Iranians asked for the J-8 of any variants. I’m far more inclined to believe the rumors that they asked for the JH-7/A and were denied. The JH-7A would have caused a massive reaction from the US and the West because of the anti-shipping aspect.

The J-8? Highly unlikely. It makes absolutely no sense to anyone who followed the Iranian air force.

yeah, with old J-7s, what a surprise.
Do you know how good J-8F is?
and funny that you mentionned, JH-7A, cause FBC-1 as explained by Crobato is also downgraded compared to JH-7A.

You keep on referring back to 1996, it’s not 1996 anymore.

Again, you have no idea of what the term means but you still insist on using it. If you understand military exports and the history of Chinese aircraft, you would know that the F-8IIm was first offered in 1996. The F-8IIM offered was better than any known variant of J-8. The J-8F appeared years after the F-8IIM.

Again, it is pure idiocy to think in this way. It’s tantamount to saying that the F-15C is a “monkey” version of F-15E. They are two different variants from two different time periods.

The J-8F to Iran story is mentionned by numerous credible sources on Chinese bbs.

There are far more credible stories of Iranians disliking any Chinese aircraft (and who wouldn’t when you have the F-14) much less an old Soviet-style aircraft like the J-8II.

I absolutely doubt that the Iranians asked for the J-8 of any variants. I’m far more inclined to believe the rumors that they asked for the JH-7/A and were denied. The JH-7A would have caused a massive reaction from the US and the West because of the anti-shipping aspect.

The J-8? Highly unlikely. It makes absolutely no sense to anyone who followed the Iranian air force.

Tphuang, not only do you have no understanding of the term “monkey” version before throwing it around (it is associated with Soviet exports, NEVER Chinese ones,) you don’t even understand the history of the F-8IIM before repeatedly using it as “evidence.”

Again, the F-8IIM was first offered in 1996. It was superior to every other J-8II variant that we know of at the time. The J-8F is only reaching the PLAAF in numbers now.

The so-called J-8F “story” with Iran is just that — a story. But even if it were true, the F-8II came years before it. It is utter stupidity to call an earlier version a “monkey” of the later version. Monkey variants are deliberate downgraded versions of current models.

The F-8IIM cannot be a “monkey” version of something that came years later. The F-15C is not a “monkey” version of the F-15E. So understand your terminology.

China has systems it never offered for sale like SSNs — but it has never sold a “monkeyized” version of anything it offered.

Your blog is great but it is not the end all, be all. And it pales in comparison to the open discussion we have in the Chinese speculation/news threads (now in its 11th extension) in this very forum.

You keep on referring back to 1996, it’s not 1996 anymore. It’s 2007. The version F-8IIM offered right now is better than what it was offered in 1996 (have you looked at what is offered right now before determining it’s equivalent to what was offered in 1996?), but it’s clearly nowhere near that of J-8F/H. It’s using all Chinese avionics, but not as good as the Chinese avionics on J-8F/H. How is that not a monkey version?

The J-8F to Iran story is mentionned by numerous credible sources on Chinese bbs. The same people that predicted the existence of H-6K and KD-88 before they were ever unveiled to public.

All purely exported equipment[not JV] are downgraded to some degree.

He has proven absolutely nothing. Why don’t you try to explain how he explained my F-8IIM and J-8F example? Rather than just being loud and stating your belief without any proof.

Tphuang, not only do you have no understanding of the term “monkey” version before throwing it around (it is associated with Soviet exports, NEVER Chinese ones,) you don’t even understand the history of the F-8IIM before repeatedly using it as “evidence.”

Again, the F-8IIM was first offered in 1996. It was superior to every other J-8II variant that we know of at the time. The J-8F is only reaching the PLAAF in numbers now.

The so-called J-8F “story” with Iran is just that — a story. But even if it were true, the F-8II came years before it. It is utter stupidity to call an earlier version a “monkey” of the later version. Monkey variants are deliberate downgraded versions of current models.

The F-8IIM cannot be a “monkey” version of something that came years later. The F-15C is not a “monkey” version of the F-15E. So understand your terminology.

China has systems it never offered for sale like SSNs — but it has never sold a “monkeyized” version of anything it offered.

Your blog is great but it is not the end all, be all. And it pales in comparison to the open discussion we have in the Chinese speculation/news threads (now in its 11th extension) in this very forum.

THis thread is now belong Chines missiles :p

What most of the ppl say About pak Missile every detalis end On chines missile lol 😀

What next :dev2:

Pakistan is one of China’s closest ally for the last 50 years. It probably remain a close ally for next 50 years.

Young Pakistani ladies greeting China president during 2006 state visit

Leave Crobato out for a moment, as he uses intelligent arguments & not sheer arrogance like you, and wins others respect, by adding to other’s knowledge.

don’t be so bitter.

Howevere, you only have to look at your own numerous posts (in many forums) arguing furiously that PLAAF would NOT be interested in JF-17, and only J-10s. I will not waste any of my time digging those posts. You can do that, and see contradiction in your own statements.

i know what my views are and have always been. I don’t need you to tell me. My views are well stated in my blog.

China surely one day will have to face F-22s & F-35s, but not with a lot of its existing J-6/J-7’s that PLAAF currently flies, a handful of J-10s and imported Russian “Monkeyed” aircraft as its front line aircraft, barely catching up with Taiwanese forces – forget the dreams of facing F-22’s for another 20 years. By then, where would America be? So, carry on dreaming in your virtual world.

we don’t fly any more J-6s. Yes, the flankers we imported are monkey versions, that’s why we don’t import them anymore. Why don’t you keep on embarrassing yourself with such apparent lack of knowledge. If you read my blog, you would get an idea of when the next generation fighters of PLAAF will come out. I don’t need to state them here if you just bother to have a read? Keep on insulting China if you want, but Pakistan will be buying planes from us for the foreseeable future.

We know you are a software coder, the lowest form of creature in software developmment hierarchy – have you ever heard of ‘Enterprise Architect’ – over the other end of spectrum. Therefore, I am confidant of my ability to pay. But the question is what are your taste buds like? Have they improved beyond the McDonalds ‘Big Mac’ meal stage yet? We all remember, peasant chinese queuing up for blocks, ready to part with their weeks wages just to buy a McDonalds meal, when the store first opened in Peking.

tphuang, now that you have escaped poverty of China and have started to live half decently in an advanced society, for Gods sake have some humility, and drop this arrogance. It will be a long time before China is any where near USA technologically and economically, to justify your misplaced arrogance. Keep repeating to yourself – CHINA IS NO USA YET.

I am closing this useless debate with you, as sure enough I have not a hope in hell in succeeding where your pa***** failed so miserably.

wow, so you can only continue by insult me. Clearly, you have no ability to argue or debate in a civil manner. Unless you are making in the 7 digits in USD, I’m pretty sure I’m doing better than you are. And if I get taken out by someone who is incapable of carrying out a civil conversation like yourself, it better be a $500 French place. I know one on the upper west side. In fact, I even have connection to one of the chef. I can get us in for sure.

Would be interesting to ask the contribution the Pakistani side has put into the project. Also clarifying rumors about western avionics (Thales, griffo ect).

I won’t be that interested to ask any question at all, because I know I would be getting a political answer that does not really answer anything. Time is the one that better answers your questions. What happens is what is more important to me than what is said. What is said always changes because of fluid situations and circumstances.

If left with one question, is that how does the plane fly, handle?