Pakistan's New and Upgraded Cruise Missile

as far nuclear technology is concerned, a country only depends upon or get foreign technologies cant be a partner in ITER, they are not fool, they know what is the capabilities of partner countries. this is one example only…

i dont know how Russia comes in this discussion…they built some nuclear reactors for India as like US, Canada but what is the realtion of that with India’s nuke programmes….Do you know anything what you are talking about…just go to DAE,BARC,IIPR,TIFR websites, learn what they have developed, everything is public here….

and about russia “helping” india in Brahmos and Su-30, is it a back-door deal? or it voilates international rules??!! I dont have any question about JF-17. Brahmos is joint venture company of DRDO and NPO Mash, to jointly develop various versions of a supersonic cruise missile for army, navy and air force of both countries and for third countries.

But giving nuke and long range ballistic missile to a country which didnt even developed a bus engine indegenously (they do have long range ballistic missile but could not develop a SLV, why? because they cannot be used against India) In public, PRC giving every tech from ships(F-22P) to fighters (JF-17) with ToT but the other things……think yourself….anyway good strategy…..:D :rolleyes:

‘go QQ’ implies go cry some more, just fyi u know … wait you did that already.

The ballistic missile i was referring to was codenamed Tipu. And it was different from the SLV program. More of a 3 stage shaheen if memory serves me right. So a solid fuel solution.
I think for the SLV, they are working on a liquid propollent. More of a Ghauri followon.

I frankly don’t know a great deal about it, I actually thought it was a combination of liquid and solid fueled rocket stacked together. 😀

Kaduna, I think that it won’t be a cruise missile at that range. The last I heard they where planning a SLV and my guess is that the project will be complete before 2015.

Thanks SOC, glad we can have a civilized discussion.

The ballistic missile i was referring to was codenamed Tipu. And it was different from the SLV program. More of a 3 stage shaheen if memory serves me right. So a solid fuel solution.
I think for the SLV, they are working on a liquid propollent. More of a Ghauri followon.

Kaduna, I think that it won’t be a cruise missile at that range. The last I heard they where planning a SLV and my guess is that the project will be complete before 2015.

Thanks SOC, glad we can have a civilized discussion.

[color=red]zarya and globaltracker have each been granted a week’s reprieve from posting here. Does anyone else want to test the waters, or can this evolve into a civilized discussion?[/color]

SOC: thanks. Could you also please delete the offending “mines biggere then yours” posts as well?

Moving on. Does anyone know if pakistan has any plans for 3000K+ missiles? If i recall correctly, engine testing was underway a few years back but then it all went quiet.
I had heard the plans were shelved for range extension as no threat exists beyond 2000K for pakistan. If ICBMs are introduced to the region, will the internal pressure increase on pak govt to extend range further?

[color=red]zarya and globaltracker have each been granted a week’s reprieve from posting here. Does anyone else want to test the waters, or can this evolve into a civilized discussion?[/color]

As that chart illustrates, Pakistan has barely 2 stars, meaning it does not have the ability to truly create an indigenous cruise missile by itself.

Do you know that was year 1998?

As that chart illustrates, Pakistan has barely 2 stars, meaning it does not have the ability to truly create an indigenous cruise missile by itself.

Every major military weapon that Pakistan has is from China. Everything.

It’s nukes – China. It’s missiles, China. Tanks – China. Jet planes – China.

There is no possiblity that the Babur was truly 100% indigenous. Not even partially indigenous. More likely, Pakistan drew up it’s “Wish” list, and China made it, and transferred tech to produce it to Pakistan.

Now, the JF17 is a good example of the relationship between China and Pakistan. What input did Pakistan provide for the JF17? It merely provided a “Wish list”, and a pretty good paint job. China did the rest. Now, any Pakistani who out of national pride is going to argue with that statement is in fact the same Pakistani who insists the Babur was some secret indigenous Pakistani project with some help from China. It simply is beyond the means of Pakistani to do this indigenously.

Pakistan is a very poor, very primitive country that has serious problems.

China itself is a relatively poor, relatively primitive country compared to the West. If China is poor and primitive, then Pakistan is even more poor, and primitive.

that wasnt my question, as babur can carry 500kg war head more than 500 km away and its a copy of DH-10 (which is completely developed and underproduction after first test!)

Completley baseless. If there was even a shred of evidence to support this claim, you can be sure the Indian government would be the first to brandish it in front of the world.

then its completely violates the rules of MTCR.

Firstly, even if China did ship DH10s to pakistan for them to paint a different cammo on, it would not violate the MTCR because China never signed up to it.

Secondly, the MTCR is only a volentary, non-binding commitment. There is no basis in international law to enforce it. The US or any other signitary can back out today and there would be nothing anyone can do about it other then voice their disapproval.

So my Q was, “is any country using Pakistan against India giving her WMD and long range missiles voilating international rules ?” :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Again, zero credible evidence to support that claim. Nor is it breaking international rules if China did provide such help, since the time such alleged transfered occuured was before China signed the NPT.

People living in glass houses should do well to avoid throwning stones, least someone forget that the nuclear programme of another country in the region is based largely on commerically supply canadian nuclear tech that was abused to make weapons with. But I digress…

Chinese bediou isnt operational as of yet. or is it operational? So it is using second grade GPS signals on Recievers available in international market?

The Chinese Beidou is operational in the region of SE asia. It has not yet reached global coverage but we have seen regiment level HQ units equiped with the beidou GPS moduals.

BTW using second grade GPS signals isn’t such a bad idea although the CEP maybe lower. Hey if IAF had to duct tape commercial trucking GPS units to their Su-30s and consider it the GPS upgrade then the idea of using commercial GPS signals on cruise missiles aren’t so weird after all.

as far nuclear technology is concerned, a country only depends upon or get foreign technologies cant be a partner in ITER, they are not fool, they know what is the capabilities of partner countries. this is one example only…

And there is nothing except your bias that makes u think india made the bomb on its own while pak must have got it in a box from china.

i dont know how Russia comes in this discussion

YOU are the one bringing who brought china and india into the discussion. Read your own post above. Now why cry when russia is mentioned??

…they built some nuclear reactors for India as like US, Canada but what is the realtion of that with India’s nuke programmes….Do you know anything what you are talking about…just go to DAE,BARC,IIPR,TIFR websites, learn what they have developed, everything is public here….

And while u are accusing china of supplying pak nukes based upon pure conjecture, you cant accept the same about india and russia?? Lets see you come up with proof now that russia did not give india the bomb in a box back in 74. Do you see how this can easily become a circular argument that goes nowhere?

Brahmos is joint venture company of DRDO and NPO Mash, to jointly develop various versions of a supersonic cruise missile for army, navy and air force of both countries and for third countries.

Russia does not need india to develop the brahmos. Russia already has its own version and can market it themselves to whoever they want.

But giving nuke and long range ballistic missile to a country which didnt even developed a bus engine indegenously (they do have long range ballistic missile but could not develop a SLV, why? because they cannot be used against India) In public, PRC giving every tech from ships(F-22P) to fighters (JF-17) with ToT but the other things……think yourself….anyway good strategy…..:D :rolleyes:

Again. Pure conjecture. China did not give any nukes to pak. And while they have helped with some of the missiles, they did not violate MTCR.

I think you’re are confusing the issues. Dont recall cryogenic engines that russia supplied to india for the GSLVs in violation of the MTCR?. And india has now used this tech transfer to try and develop its own versions. If india can use russian tech, why not china and pak?

DH-10, pak-china collaboration and babar have all been discussed and discussed again. Read back on the whole thread.

As far as “any country using pak against india” is concerned, India is one of the largest importers of arms in the world. Is india being used? Why is russia helping india build its cruise missile? Why is Russia helping india assemble flankers? What help did russia provide in india’s nuke program and continues to help india build nuclear reactors? To what end?

Point is, all countries gets help and provide help based on self interest. So no point focusing on china and pakistan alone. Thats the way it goes.

as far nuclear technology is concerned, a country only depends upon or get foreign technologies cant be a partner in ITER, they are not fool, they know what is the capabilities of partner countries. this is one example only…

i dont know how Russia comes in this discussion…they built some nuclear reactors for India as like US, Canada but what is the realtion of that with India’s nuke programmes….Do you know anything what you are talking about…just go to DAE,BARC,IIPR,TIFR websites, learn what they have developed, everything is public here….

and about russia “helping” india in Brahmos and Su-30, is it a back-door deal? or it voilates international rules??!! I dont have any question about JF-17. Brahmos is joint venture company of DRDO and NPO Mash, to jointly develop various versions of a supersonic cruise missile for army, navy and air force of both countries and for third countries.

But giving nuke and long range ballistic missile to a country which didnt even developed a bus engine indegenously (they do have long range ballistic missile but could not develop a SLV, why? because they cannot be used against India) In public, PRC giving every tech from ships(F-22P) to fighters (JF-17) with ToT but the other things……think yourself….anyway good strategy…..:D :rolleyes:

that wasnt my question, as babur can carry 500kg war head more than 500 km away and its a copy of DH-10 (which is completely developed and underproduction after first test!), then its completely violates the rules of MTCR. And i was asking about Pakistan’s industrial and technological background to develop such a missile specially the engine and hi-tech software its needed. So my Q was, “is any country using Pakistan against India giving her WMD and long range missiles voilating international rules ?” :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

DH-10, pak-china collaboration and babar have all been discussed and discussed again. Read back on the whole thread.

As far as “any country using pak against india” is concerned, India is one of the largest importers of arms in the world. Is india being used? Why is russia helping india build its cruise missile? Why is Russia helping india assemble flankers? What help did russia provide in india’s nuke program and continues to help india build nuclear reactors? To what end?

Point is, all countries gets help and provide help based on self interest. So no point focusing on china and pakistan alone. Thats the way it goes.

UN! … MTCR! … go QQ some more

that wasnt my question, as babur can carry 500kg war head more than 500 km away and its a copy of DH-10 (which is completely developed and underproduction after first test!), then its completely violates the rules of MTCR. And i was asking about Pakistan’s industrial and technological background to develop such a missile specially the engine and hi-tech software its needed. So my Q was, “is any country using Pakistan against India giving her WMD and long range missiles voilating international rules ?” :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Lets just stop the pathetic bashing, a lot of you seem to be non-aerospace-engineering related, giving advice on things you dont seem to understand. Pls dont give your views based on BCRAP

You dont invent things if you already can aquire them in another way…thats ‘common egnineering sense’…although it looks like some instruments/structures can be acquired from non-indigenous sources, its still a Pakistani product…if making cruise missiles was just easy copying crashed cruise missiles…alot of countrys would already have them. Some common elements are always used from existing qualified systems….’if it works than use it untill you can improve it’ concept

Wrong. The people who actually tested the missile, claim it is the first test.
Until you are saying that the govt is lying or you have a proof that the missile was tested before this is a moot point.

Where?
I would like to see ISPR release saying Pakistan conducted “first” test of Babur.
This is the news that was posted in DAWN quoting ISPR.
Aug 12, 2005.
http://www.dawn.com/2005/08/12/top2.htm

“
ISLAMABAD, Aug 11: Pakistan on Thursday successfully test-fired its first nuclear-capable Ground Launched Cruise Missile (GLCM), Hatf VII, and joined a select group of countries capable of developing the ground-hugging projectiles.

The Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) said the missile, Babur, designed and developed by an elite team of scientists and engineers of Pakistan’s strategic organizations, had the capability to carry nuclear and conventional warheads to a range of 500km with pinpoint accuracy.

All design parameters for the flight were validated in Thursday’s test, the ISPR said.

Giving details of the cruise missile, the ISPR said it was a terrain-hugging missile, which had the most advanced and modern navigation and guidance system and a high degree of manoeuvrability. The technology enables the missile to avoid radar detection and penetrate undetected through any hostile defensive system. The missile could be launched from all platforms, including surface ships, submarines and aircraft, it added.

By conducting the successful test, the ISPR said, Pakistan had joined a select group of countries which had the capability to design and develop cruise missiles.

The US, the UK, China, France, Germany, Israel, Italy, Russia and India are some of the countries which have cruise missiles in their arsenal, said a source. In his message on the occasion, President Gen Pervez Musharraf said Babur was a major milestone in Pakistan’s quest for strengthening and consolidating the country’s strategic capability.

Congratulating the team of scientists, President Musharraf said the country’s scientists and engineers had once again done the nation proud by mastering a rare technology. The president reiterated Pakistan’s resolve to continue to meet emerging challenges and geo-strategic developments in its neighbourhood. Pakistan’s security, he said, was non-negotiable.

The test-firing of Babur cruise missile coincided with President Musharraf’s 62nd birthday, who was born on August 11, 1943.

Asked if the missile test was intended as a gift for President Musharraf, military spokesperson Maj-Gen Shaukat Sultan said it was a coincident that the missile was tested on the birthday of President Musharraf.

Asked whether any advance notice had been given to the neighbouring countries regarding missile test, Maj-Gen Sultan said under the existing agreement Pakistan had to inform neighbouring countries only about ballistic missile tests and not about the other categories. He said the Babur cruise missile was in the category of missiles which were not covered by the agreement.

“We don’t have to inform neighbouring countries in this case. It is not a ballistic missile and it doesn’t fall under the agreement,” he added.

The Babur missile is an addition to Pakistan’s nuclear and conventional missile weapon systems which include Shaheen-I with a range of 600km; Shaheen-II with a range up to 2,000km; Ghauri-I with 1,500km range; Ghauri-II with 2,300km range; Hatf I-A with a range of 100km; Hatf-II with 180km range and Hatf-III having a range of 290km.

“

The thing is, thats the first test that we know about.

Wrong. The people who actually tested the missile, claim it is the first test.
Until you are saying that the govt is lying or you have a proof that the missile was tested before this is a moot point.

Vikasrehman
People are not coming to the conclusion because of the secretive nature of these project but because of your own govt claims.After first test you claim the missile is ready for induction and 100% made in pakistan people will question it.

The thing is, thats the first test that we know about. Just like the JF-17 flight was the “first flight” and it was doing all kinds of maneuvres. That proves nothing.

Vikasrehman
People are not coming to the conclusion because of the secretive nature of these project but because of your own govt claims.After first test you claim the missile is ready for induction and 100% made in pakistan people will question it.

What it comes down to is a bigoted presumption on your part that Pakistanis could not have created the Babur on their own just because India needed help for the Brahmos. It’s an entirely silly and fallacious argument.

GD, i dont think one can blame people making such assumptions (rightly or wrongly) about such pakistani/chinese projects. These projects are so secretive and so little is known about their (in particular Pakistan) real military R&D capabilities that anyone would be tempted to jump to the most logical conclusion.