Percival Gull – Designed By………….?

Hello Linny,

My name is Mark Pilkington, I was involved in the Percival debate above and would like to view your uncles letters re litigation etc that you mention in your recent post of March 2022.

I live in Geelong and work in Melbourne CBD, and have sent you a PM with my contact details

A remarkable thread and shows us not to give up hope when research appears at a dead end. I do hope that the offer by ‘linny1’ is taken up by somebody.

What this thread has also (again) demonstrated is that many aviation titles have lacked proper research by their authors. I know from my own experience that articles in Flight and The Aeroplane can be nothing more than reworking a manufacturer’s press release. Press releases would all too often be ‘aspirational hope’ that failed to translate into reality. These exaggeration can often make its way into the company’s maintenance manuals, only to be disproved years later by the discovery of ‘lost’ Air Ministry papers based upon factual testing. 

Such discoveries make proper research all the more enjoyable.

Edgar was my uncle. His papers were given by his brother Robert to the Australian national museum. I have the ones considered not worthy of the museum. Also quite a number of private letters including those where he was involved in litigation. I would be happy to show these to one of you experts but I live in Melbourne. 

Just to expand the theme somewhat, in light of what has been posted elsewhere, would anyone care to comment concerning Edgar Percivals’s input to the design of the Gull Four, the Gull Six, the various Mew Gulls, the Vega Gull, the Q.6 and the Proctor?

Any help really appreciated… I’m building a flying scale model of this aircraft – does anyone have any reference to what colours it was actually painted in please?

…

Practice flight for the 1932 King’s Cup Air Race after the Brooklands rebuild, Percival at the controls – photo from Alex Henshaw.

Welcome linny1. I’m sure that anything that you can contribute to this subject, having regard to your family connections and information, will be read with interest and gratitude by members of this forum.

Percival Gull – Designed by….

I am one of Edgar Percival’s only 2 surviving nieces. His brother Robert gave most of Edgar’s papers to the RAF Museum Hendon so perhaps that is the place to go for information about the early designs. I have personal letters and hundreds of photos which in time will be given to the Australian National Museum.

I have some vague recollection of reading a reasonably detailed account of the saga. It was either in an issue of the modern Aeroplane magazine, or the National Museum of Australia’s website. But beyond that, I really don’t recall.

HTH!

Richard Ridings obit for A J Jackson in an early 1983 Aeroplane doesn’t mention the Percival wrangle either…

Do you know the where A.J.Jackson’s papers are archived? Are they at Brooklands along with his photographic collection?

Just to jog memories – these questions still await answers.

Thanks, Mark, got that…

JDK, Thanks, it’s a ‘longshot’ about fhe AJJ obit, but they must have poblished something…

Seasons Greetings, all….Mick

I wrote the obit for AJJ in “Vintage Aircraft” magazine and I didn’t mention Percival. For Percival’s obit I dedicated an entire issue to him. (VA # 30)

John Hopton, Edgar Percival, AJ Jackson

Thanks, Mark, got that…

JDK, Thanks, it’s a ‘longshot’ about fhe AJJ obit, but they must have poblished something…

Seasons Greetings, all….Mick

Lovely stuff, Longshot. Drop me a PM with your details, and I can pass them onto someone who is in touch with John H.

longshot, PM sent with John’s email contact details

Regards

Mark Pilkington

A few years ago John Hopton sent me these b&w photos of Edgar Percival landing a Gull in Australia (1976) (Joe Drage photographer) and a colour photo of Percival (LH) with John’s brother (perhaps ca.1980). Unfortunately I’ve lost touch with John( computer disasters etc.)

Lovely stuff, Longshot. Drop me a PM with your details, and I can pass them onto someone who is in touch with John H.

.

I have some vague recollection of reading a reasonably detailed account of the saga. It was either in an issue of the modern Aeroplane magazine, or the National Museum of Australia’s website. But beyond that, I really don’t recall.

HTH!

Did Richard Riding write A J Jacksons’s obituary in Aeroplane monthly?…it might mention the Percival wrangle

I presume that there is nothing extant concerning the Hendy 311, the reputed design for a three seat version of the Hendy 302, about which Don L. Brown is reported to have spoken post WW2?

A facinating thread and very much in my prime interest area. Would any one know if the colours of the 302 have been recorded anywhere?.

John

[QUOTE=Mark_pilkington;1505839].

However its unfair on inuendo alone to then question or dispute Percival’s claim to the design of Saro-Percival mailplane, without any evidence other’s are laying claim to the design work when Saro acknowledge his employment/involvement?

/QUOTE]

I apologise if I have created the wrong impression. I did not question or dispute Percival’s design of the Saro-Percival Mailplane. I do not have any evidential basis upon which to do so. However it is my opinion, based upon that which I have read, that Percival’s claims to be the sole designer of the Gull are not supportable. Thus, perhaps in jest, I invited comment upon the design credentials of the Saro-Percival Mailplane. Nothing has been forthcoming to contradict that which I have read, on this subject, thus far.

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I have’nt seen all of the archival records of Percival or Henderson to confirm what claims either has made in detail in personal letters etc, but I feel those are only two people who would know the full details of who actually designed “what”.

The arguments “against” Percival are largely derived from:

1. The Hendy 302 is recorded as a Henderson design.
2. The Flight 1930 article supports that position.
3. The Henderson cantilever wing design is utilised in the Gull.
4. The overall General Arrangement of the Hendy 302 and Gull are the same.
5. Percival employed proffessional designers, suggesting he did not design himself.
6. Strong similarities exist between the wing design of the Hendy, and the Gull.

However a reading of the Flight 1930 Hendy article and Percival’s letter below can have the two views reconsiled to some degree.

The Percival letter to Flight in 1955.
Quote:
I REFER to your obituary notice of Basil B. Henderson on
page 795 of Flight for November 25th. First of all, let me
express my deep regret at hearing of his death. Basil was a friend
of mine of long standing and had my great respect as a highly
trained and most capable engineer.
For the sole purpose of the record, however, one or two
corrections are called for. I was not at any time a member of
Henderson’s organization, therefore I did not “join forces with
Henderson and Miles.”
The experimental aircraft built in the small shed at Shoreham
with the 40 h.p. A.B.C. engine was not the 302.

The 302 was the
aircraft I had built for me by George Parnall at Yate to our design.

It was my personal property from the inception. The contract
to build it for me was made by me directly with Parnall, the
financial responsibility being mine entirely.

The specification for
this aircraft was mine, as well as an important share of the design
work. This would be confirmed by an agreement made between
Henderson and myself as to joint ownership of certain features of
the design structure. I later sold my share in these rights.

Basil Henderson was employed by me on the design work and
H. A. Miles (who, I believe, for some years had been with A. V.
Roe as a stressman) on the stressing; Henderson by way of an
agreed lump sum and expenses and Miles by a weekly salary.
These two gentlemen constituted the whole of the Henderson
organization.

Henderson’s personal contribution to the design was, of course,
an important factor; he had carried out research work on cantilever
wings, which was a great help.

None other than the prototype of this aircraft was built, but
it was a reasonably successful attempt to introduce the low-wing
cantilever form of aircraft.
These details are perhaps unimportant but the matter has been
incorrectly reported on a previous occasion, and this letter is to
set down the facts.
London, W.I. E. W. PERCIVAL

A clear conclusion from Percival’s letter is:

The Hendy 302 was ordered and paid for by him, to an overall design proposed by him but drawn by Henderson and Miles, including further development of the cantilever wing design based on Henderson’s earlier work on the “Hobbo”.

– The Hendy 302’s design was jointly owned by Percival and Henderson and detailed in a contract between them.

– Henderson and Miles were contracted by him to work on the design.

– Percival funded the construction and owned the resultant aircraft.

– The Hendy 302 was a sole prototype.

(Flight 1930 entry for Hendy 302.

The next step in Mr. Henderson’s programme was a two-seater
development of the little ” Hobo,” and
the general ” scheme ” appealed to Capt.
Percival. The upshot was that he decided
to join forces with Henderson and Miles,
they to do the actual design work, calculations,
etc., and Percival to contribute practical
advice out of his long and varied experience
of aircraft at home and in Australia. A
contract was entered into with George
Parnall of Bristol for the construction of the
machine.

The machine incorporates in its wing construction some unusual and
patented features of which Mr. Henderson is the inventor.

Mr. Henderson and Captain Percival are now arranging for the machine to be built in considerable numbers.

The Flight article confirms the use of the patented spars designed by Henderson, confirms Percivals involvement in its development, the engagement of Henderson and Miles to design work and calculations, and a third party, Parnall, to construct it.

Much argument then derives from the interpretation of who is the designer, the person employed to develop calculations and draw up a design, or the person with the overall vision and specification?.

The similarities and differences of the Hendy wing to the Gull wing are clearly seen in the 1930 Flight photos and other Gull photos shown above, the testimony of Robert Paine that the Hendy 302 was used as a reference to rebuild the damaged Gull only confirms there are similarities (as could be expected), it does’nt resolve who actually designed the entire wing structure.

Without testimony of one of those three involved, Percival, Henderson and Miles, we will never really know how much of the Hendy “design” Percival really did contribute?

I am not aware of correspondence and claims made by Henderson to the arrangements, Percival’s design involvement in the Hendy 302, or his own “contribution” into the design of the Gull? – Do his papers exist?

If Percival did hold some contractual and design rights in the Hendy 302, he would consider any wing and other design features extended into the Gull series to be his as well, while acknowledging the design rights of Henderson to the earlier cantilever wing spars used in the Hobo.

Percival died in London in 1984, I dont know what happened to his private papers, and what research might be possible and “confirmed by an agreement made between Henderson and myself as to joint ownership of certain features of the design structure.”

Of course that is unlikely to prove who said and did what in the design room on any given day, during the development of the Hendy 302, or the later Gull, and the debate will rage on.

However its unfair on inuendo alone to then question or dispute Percival’s claim to the design of Saro-Percival mailplane, without any evidence other’s are laying claim to the design work when Saro acknowledge his employment/involvement?

Speculation is not a subsitute for research, to justify revision of history.

regards

Mark Pilkington

I’m finding this discussion about Percival designs very interesting. So much design drawing seems to have been done informally, making it hard to trace who did what.

I’m wondering about the early Miles designs – how much help did Fred and Blossom get with early projects like the Satyr and the Hawk to make them practicable?

Edgar Percival Gull

A few years ago John Hopton sent me these b&w photos of Edgar Percival landing a Gull in Australia (1976) (Joe Drage photographer) and a colour photo of Percival (LH) with John’s brother (perhaps ca.1980). Unfortunately I’ve lost touch with John( computer disasters etc.)