pics aircraft-carrier Graf Zeppelin

A speed of 2-3 knots would have been enough to secure Bismarck’s escape. The only reason the British caught her was that she was steaming in their direction, unable to do otherwise. I don’t believe the thrusters would have to counteract the jammed rudder. The ship was able to get out of its circular course but could not fix on any steady course. The rudders were, I believe, a non-factor at that point. If thrusters offered prospects for escape, the Germans also had the option of blowing off the rudders, something they opted against historically.

In Bismarck’s case, all that was needed was enough directional stability to keep the ship from being blown out to see. The jammed rudder left the ship unable to maintain any steady heading. I wonder if the bow propellers and manipulation of the main engines would have sufficed to keep her heading SE.

Probably highly unlikely unless speed was reduced to 2-3 knots, bow thrusters, azimuths and cyclodal units aren’t powerful enough to act against the main propulsion system except at very low speeds, and for a fwd thruster unit to have counter acted a jammed rudder would have reduced the Bismarck’s speed to the point of eliminating any chance of evading her pursuers.

The Germans knew they would never gain superiority over the RN, which makes you wonder–what did they think they were accomplishing? The fact is that even the Germans were unsure what their largest fleet units were intended to do. No kidding.

They were bigging up there egos, nothing more and nothing less.;)

There is a real link between Taranto and Pearl Harbor in that the Japanese plied the Italians for technical information on the outcome, but the Japanese did not need anyone to give them the idea. The first mention of attacking the US at Pearl dates from 1936 which, I believe, predates the original Taranto planning by a year. It should be remembered that the British were planning a torpedo-plane attack on a German base in 1918. I think this was examined in a recent Warship annual.

I would also point out that the US Navy’s carrier force under Rear Admiral Harry Yarnell approached Oahu from the Northeast and launched a predawn strike of 152 aircraft from the Saratoga and Lexington against Pearl Harbour that caught the defenders completely unprepared.

The date was 7 February 1932.

Unicorn

Indeed, If you read about the RN’s tentative fleet plan you quickly realise that the Z-plan would not have achieved any great superiority at all.

The Germans knew they would never gain superiority over the RN, which makes you wonder–what did they think they were accomplishing? The fact is that even the Germans were unsure what their largest fleet units were intended to do. No kidding.

Cycloidal manouvering units have a capability for fwd movement but it’s so limited as to be pretty useless on a ship that size other than for manouvering assistance.

In Bismarck’s case, all that was needed was enough directional stability to keep the ship from being blown out to see. The jammed rudder left the ship unable to maintain any steady heading. I wonder if the bow propellers and manipulation of the main engines would have sufficed to keep her heading SE.

Let’s not forget the Royal Navy’s attack on Taranto by Carrier Aircraft. Really, the first of its kind and gave the Japanese the idea to strike Pearl Harbor.

There is a real link between Taranto and Pearl Harbor in that the Japanese plied the Italians for technical information on the outcome, but the Japanese did not need anyone to give them the idea. The first mention of attacking the US at Pearl dates from 1936 which, I believe, predates the original Taranto planning by a year. It should be remembered that the British were planning a torpedo-plane attack on a German base in 1918. I think this was examined in a recent Warship annual.

The problem with these ideas is they ignore the fact that all Germany’s enemies were also re-arming rapidly, the RN had embarked on a major fleet renewal program and the RAF was modernising fast, and France and the USSR were also investing heavily in response to German re-armament and diplomatic posturing. In many ways you can argue Germany made a sound decision by going to war in 1939 before the relative strenghs of her enemies overhauled German weapons decisively.

Indeed, If you read about the RN’s tentative fleet plan you quickly realise that the Z-plan would not have achieved any great superiority at all.

germany was to some degree unlucky having hitler as its wartime leader in as much as, had he been less of a megalamaniac ( and a tad more patient) with the technical advancements in aircraft design on the drawing boards in 1940 and proved and produced in numbers, there would have been time to design a new class of battleship (,rather than having to use the WW1 design in haste) germany could then have declared war in 1942 confident that it had an exellent chance to defeat all of europe easily and with a plentiful suppy of proved aircraft and ships,(both Battleship and Aircraft Carrier) this iview may be simplistic but it could have been so, we were lucky it was hitler in the driving seat and not Albert Speer 😎 😎 😎

The problem with these ideas is they ignore the fact that all Germany’s enemies were also re-arming rapidly, the RN had embarked on a major fleet renewal program and the RAF was modernising fast, and France and the USSR were also investing heavily in response to German re-armament and diplomatic posturing. In many ways you can argue Germany made a sound decision by going to war in 1939 before the relative strenghs of her enemies overhauled German weapons decisively.

One interesting feature of the GZ design was the bow propellers. These were intended to facilitate maneuvering the ship in tight harbors but the could actually move the ship at a few knots. Do you think the Bismarck crew would have liked such a feature?
Something I’d like to read but have never seen would be a study of the potential use of a balanced German fleet in the Baltic. Would there have been any use for an aircraft carrier in the eastern Baltic?

Cycloidal manouvering units have a capability for fwd movement but it’s so limited as to be pretty useless on a ship that size other than for manouvering assistance. A lot of modern ships have retractable azimuth thrusters which have a similar capability but they’re only suitable for manouvering and very low speed position holding unless they’re massively powerful relative to hull size.

My initial impression is “too close to land-based aircraft anywhere useful”.

Much like the Central Med for the RN’s CVs… they rarely did more in the Med than ferry in aircraft to Malta… and those they launched at max range and immediately retreated.

Let’s not forget the Royal Navy’s attack on Taranto by Carrier Aircraft. Really, the first of its kind and gave the Japanese the idea to strike Pearl Harbor…….:rolleyes:

My initial impression is “too close to land-based aircraft anywhere useful”.

Much like the Central Med for the RN’s CVs… they rarely did more in the Med than ferry in aircraft to Malta… and those they launched at max range and immediately retreated.

One interesting feature of the GZ design was the bow propellers. These were intended to facilitate maneuvering the ship in tight harbors but the could actually move the ship at a few knots. Do you think the Bismarck crew would have liked such a feature?
Something I’d like to read but have never seen would be a study of the potential use of a balanced German fleet in the Baltic. Would there have been any use for an aircraft carrier in the eastern Baltic?

I’m sure had she actualy gone into service….and survived the 1st year…..the Germans would have realized the complete unsuitability of the 109 for shipboard operations and equiped a variant of the FW 190 for naval service. On a related note……would GZ have made a good commerce raider? I’m thinking……..no.

graf zepplin

germany was to some degree unlucky having hitler as its wartime leader in as much as, had he been less of a megalamaniac ( and a tad more patient) with the technical advancements in aircraft design on the drawing boards in 1940 and proved and produced in numbers, there would have been time to design a new class of battleship (,rather than having to use the WW1 design in haste) germany could then have declared war in 1942 confident that it had an exellent chance to defeat all of europe easily and with a plentiful suppy of proved aircraft and ships,(both Battleship and Aircraft Carrier) this iview may be simplistic but it could have been so, we were lucky it was hitler in the driving seat and not Albert Speer 😎 😎 😎

The crucial year was 1941. A Russian defeat that year and the USA still outside had led to a landslide. As a German I am still happy, that the criminal regime did not succeed in that.

I’ve heard it was the third largest. I don’t know what that means, though.
People will look at you funny when you tell them the Flowers were the decisive class in the war.

In some ways the quality of escorts was less important than just having escorts. In the first half of the war U-Boats were often used as motor torpedo boats that had limited underwater capabilities if needed, but they tended to be far more effective when operating on the surface, where an escort of any sort was a valuable deterrent or defence. The corvettes were slow, poor sea boats and had a limited weapons fit, in any rational analysis they’d be considered awful ships, but they could be built and were just enough to provide a minimum escort that could make the difference between survival and sinking for merchant vessels. The Hunts were similar, they were never the best ships, but they could be built in greater quantities than fleet destroyers and were capable enough to fulfill their roles. The USN DDE’s were excellent ships, the USN made the same mistake as the RN in ignoring previously hard learned lessons in the early days of their involvement in the Atlantic campaign which cost a lot of good men needlessly. The unsung heroes of the Atlantic campaign were the Canadians, in history it’s like the Canadians never existed in many British, American and German accounts yet the RCN was providing a huge proportion of Atlantic escorts by wars end and was the 4th. largest navy in the world by the end of the war (I think).

The treaties between Germany and Britain in 1935 and 1937 leave me mystified. To formalize the German right to a submarine fleet–that’s just one of the bizarre elements.
But I wonder, if the Germans had shown a policy of concentrating on a submarine fleet rather than a more balanced composition, might it have been enough to wake up someone at the Admiralty? “Maybe we’d better take a closer look at asdic and our ASW systems in general.” I went to the trouble of buying a copy of Britain’s Anti-Submarine Capability 1919-1939 by Franklin, reputed to be quite good, yet I haven’t made time to read it (like many other books I have staring expectantly at me from the shelf).
The Hunts were not especially valuable ASW ships, being ill suited to ATW. If you check the number of sub kills, you’ll see the Hunts managed an unimpressive total. They were most valuable in sectors exposed to air attack where their 4in guns could spew out a remarkable volume of flak. And hard as it may be to believe, the “Bird” sloops fit into this same category despite the association with Capt Walker. The less prestigious corvettes and frigates were ultimately more important in the anti-submarine war. The Loch class was arguably the best ASW platform of the war, one of the few to carry the Squid system. Personally, I harbor suspiciouns that the American-built destroyer escorts were as good or better. They didn’t have Squid, but they had more speed and a better depth charge outfit. Lochs had more range, though.

In a way the RN neglect of trade protection and ASW vessels/tactics was just as stupid as the German Z plan. The RN appear to have believed that ASDIC (Sonar) had given them a silver bullet against submarines which was far from the case and their naval estimates in the years up to WW2 were dominated by rebuilding the battle fleet, carriers and fleet destroyers with virtually no escort destroyers or sloops despite the fact that it was sloops, escort destroyers and corvettes that Britain would rely on to stave off defeat in the Atlantic, the one theatre of war where Britain could have been defeated and taken out of the war. And in the early phase of the war the RN seem to have ignored everything they learnt in WW1 about convoys, the pointlessness of hunting groups etc. Luckily the Hunts were approved just before war and it was lucky for them that the German Navy wasn’t much better prepared for a U Boat campaign against merchant shipping.