Picture Of Spitfire In France

Searching for info on R7269 – G Batchelor

Hi guys,
new to this! I’m really interested in your photo, but the link is broken (redhouse is down). Is there any chance you could send it to me or post it again? G. Batchelor is a relative and i’d be really interested in any info you have on it.
Thanks!!
Jason

Thanks for posting those piccies Ian, very nice to see such rare shots, never even seen a pic of an early ‘OU-‘ coded spit so it was very well appreciated.

Tom

THANK – YOU & SOME OTHER PICS

Nice shot of W/Co Ryder and his downed Spitfire, thank you for sharing them with us.

THANK – YOU & SOME OTHER PICS

Gents

Thanks for all your efforts – some real scholarship here! I thought you might be interested in these pictures which I do have the facts on

http://www.redhouse.f9.co.uk/ebay/G_photos/spitbeach.jpg

and the pilot:

http://www.redhouse.f9.co.uk/ebay/G_photos/pilot.jpg

Ian

I think it’s an early MKVa because of the date and circumstances but there’s so little difference between a MKIIa and Va that without being able to see the serial we will only be able to speculate on the possibilities until we get a break so to speak, though we have narrowed it down somewhat I think, well done for all the research so far old boy!

Tom 😉

Tom

Thanks for the imput..

As you are nearer and get up close and dirty to the real thing more than me.. Why are you sure it is an early Va now???

Paul

Eh up Paul. I wasn’t sure about the crop situation until I showed my dad the pic and we worked out that it could be any time from late may until sometime in July as the season for drilling-harvesting was much later than nowadays so it’s more than likely that it’s one of the three A/C you’ve narrowed it down to. I’m still unsure as to whether there is in fact damage to this a/c as I’ve had a good look at the cockpit area zoomed in and it looks like the canopy is damaged, look at the area of it behind the feller with his hand in the cockpit, looks cracked to me. Now add this to the missing armoured glass and it might be that the cockpit was damaged, albeit from the other side. I’d like to think that we have Kayll’s spit here but we could do with a pic or two more of 54 sqn a/c of the period really.

Tom 😉

From List

R7222 – 54 sqn, FTR ops 5-7-41: Shot down Pilot Killed
R7264 – 54 sqn, FTR ops 14-7-41: Collided with 601 Sqn Spit. Pilot POW
R7268 – 54 sqn, FTR ops 23-7-41: Pilot Killed
R7269 – 54 sqn, FTR ops 9-7-41: P/O Batchelor POW died in captivity 1942 (see above)
R7303 – 54 sqn, FTR ops 22-7-41: Pilot POW P/O Jones
R7340 – 91 sqn, FTR ops 1-7-41: Pilot Killed
W3169 -54 sqn, FTR ops 9-7-41: Pilot Killed

So it could only be 3 of the above. And the aircraft does not look damaged from the side, so if in collision has to be on the other side..

But I thought Tom you thought the wheat to small for July?

Hi Paul, the reason that I included the ones without ‘pilot POW’ in the text was that even for some which the pilot was known to have been captured there was no text in the a/c’s history in ‘the history’ as it’s all quite vague sometimes, I assume that the Air Britain info you have is a bit more substantial. I did rule out the examples where the pilot was said to have bailed out either over water or land BTW but I imagine that there’s still a few in my list which haven’t got the full story included.

Tom 😉

Tom

I will look up those, But I think I only quoted those where there were a POW. As if the pilot was killed or bailed out in the water and rescued. The plane would not be in such a good condition!

Paul

OK, I’ve had a severe case of bookworming and my conclusion is that what we are looking at is a MKVa, could well be Kayll’s spit but both 54 and 91 did lose a few in this period:

R7222 – 54 sqn, FTR ops 5-7-41
R7264 – 54 sqn, FTR ops 14-7-41
R7268 – 54 sqn, FTR ops 23-7-41
R7269 – 54 sqn, FTR ops 9-7-41
R7303 – 54 sqn, FTR ops 22-7-41
R7340 – 91 sqn, FTR ops 1-7-41
W3169 -54 sqn, FTR ops 9-7-41

just to refresh our memories:

R7259 – 54 sqn, FTR ops after combat with Bf109 25-6-41 (Kayll’s a/c which force landed near St Omer according to Paul’s research)

Hmmmmmm :confused: :confused: :confused:

Tom 😉

Well sleuths, finally got my hands on ‘the history’ again and I’ll go through it with a fine-toothed comb tonight. BTW I’m sure I’ve seen that art from under the ‘pit somewhere, looks like a hand giving ‘the bird’ so to speak 😉 I’m not sure that it is P7443 as it was lost far too early, the wheat wouldn’t even be 4 inches high at that time of year. Also I’ve noticed that the windscreen armourned glass is missing, dunno if it’s been souvenired by someone :confused:

Tom 😉

Couple more points

A) For reference JR Kyall died Mar 3rd 2000
B) If it is P7443 a Spitfire IIa (Squire) can someone look up issue 46 of After Battle mag as it appears to be referenced see pages 31 to 37 for a picture???

I want to know why in Fighter Command Losses it says ‘E’

http://www.afterthebattle.com/atb.pdf

Firstly

According to “The History” R7259 was a VA

So it now comes down to either what Mark it is or what Sqn it is!

I can help with Sqns.. 81 Sqn only reformed in UK in 29 July 1941, so if Tom, is right about the wheat, then this is to late.. Also it only had VA’s from Jan 42. I think we can discount 81 Sqn

So it is either 91 Sqn (DL) or 54 Sqn (KL) I also think that that the first letter is not a ‘D’, it looks straight like a ‘K’ . So I am sure it is a 54 Sqn machine

BTW both 91 Sqn and 54 Sqn had Spitfire IIA’s and VA’s

However, 81 Sqn gave up IIA by May 1941 (VA’s from Mar 41) and
54 San had IIA from Feb 41 to May 41 and VA from May 41 to Aug 41

I cannot find any 91 sqn loss from Feb 1941 to until August 1941 that is likely, where Pilot POW

So I still think 54 Sqn.. That leaves us with either Spit IIa or Va
and there are better people on this forum to ID that thanme!

It’s the sky band just foward of the tailplane which is the giveaway to the date as it was specified post-BofB I think so we’re definitely talking about a spit brought down during a sweep. The yellow roundel border isn’t much help as this was used all throughout the BofB and later. It could be a MKV, albeit an early example, and yes MKV’s were more likely to be fitted with the pointed spinner with the Rotol prop but there are examples in photos with the blunt type so it maybe that these had ‘dings’ and were fitted with this type in the field. I am sure that it’s a MKIIA though and I don’t think that we’ve exhausted the references yet, once I get my hands on my library tonight I’ll restart the research 🙂 unless a certain Mr McMillan beats me to it.

Tom 😉

The fuselage roundel and the fin flash would indicate that the photo was taken prior to 1 July 1942. After that date, the style of fuselage roundels and fin flashes changed. Note also, that this aeroplane does not have the yellow ID stripes applied to the leading edge of the wings. This marking, I believe, was introduced around July/August 1941. The Sky fuselage band was introduced around December 1940. So, a date between December 1940 and July 1941? Out with “Spitfire – The History’!

This is a close – up of the area around the cockpit

http://www.redhouse.f9.co.uk/ebay/G_photos/spit_mark.jpg

Does the large yellow band around the roundel give a clue on date?

Ian

I’m pretty certain that it’s a Mk.IIa Spit rather than a Mk.V.The Rotol prop wasn’t fitted on the Mk.V as far as I’m aware.Being as there is no record of a 54Sqn Mk.II being lost in this time period,are we sure we’ve identified the Sqn correctly??The obscured code letter might be a D (which would mean this Spit belonged to 91Sqn.),but I’d say from what I can see of it between the guys legs that it could be something like an F,as there appears to be no horizontal line coming from the bottom of the letter.”FL” would make it an 81Sqn aircraft.
Certainly a bit of a brain boggler…:confused:

Trouble is you can’t see the other side as it seem like a classic case of the pilot or radiator being hit and with the rad on the stbd wing it’s not visible. Also, Paul, was Kayll’s a/c a VA or a VBas it’s definitely an ‘A’ winged spit, not a cannon in sight and no visible damage to the areas where the cannons would be situated which rules out the possibility of them being torn out in the forced landing. It’s more than likely that the pilot dead-sticked the a/c though it is a wooden bladed Rotol so the blades would fracture rather than bend. Upon looking at it again it seems that the guns haven’t been fired so he might have been victim to a classic ‘hit-and-run’ by a ‘hun-in-the-sun’ 😉 Dunno if the pennant under the ‘pit is because it’s a high ranking pilot’s a/c, I can remember seeing a pic of another 54 machine with another pennant and the lad who was lost in it wasn’t an officer so it might be true, might not though, we’ll find out though.

Tom 😉

(I love a challenge like this 🙂

Thanks for all this very interesting info. Further observations. The prop blabes are not bent sidewards and there is no obvious battle – damage. Maybe engine failure. The logo under the cockpit looks like a pointing finger. If you look at the german soldier leaning into the cockpit, you can see a small segment of the first code between his legs. Is that more likely to be K or D. If only he has stood a little further forward!

Ian