Pilot's gun goes off on board airliner

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Gentlemen,

Desist, please!

If you really must heap contumely upon one another, please do not do so in the open forum.

Thanks

GA

I’m arrogant towards the whole world? How in the world does this topic (of armed pilots in the US) relate to my view of the rest of the world? In addition to your previous stereotyping of the US you follow that up by adding that I (we) are ignorant of the rest of the world. Too bad you’ve based your beliefs/stereotypes on unfounded reasons.

The US airlines are/were specifically targeted by terrorist groups. Perhaps this is why there are procedures and other security programs in the US that are not found in the UK or other countries. Yet you like to believe any reaction that the US has to protect itself internally is only a lack of common sense? And that makes us arrogant to the rest of the world?

I can honestly say that in my world travels I have never encountered your attitude towards Americans (thankfully). I have never judged a culture or a people because I found myself standing next to an armed soldier standing in a train station in Paris. I’ve never found myself uneasy because of the security measures one country decides to take over that of another.

You’re uneasy being in the US? What happened? Did you get mugged on the streets of NYC or something? You clearly don’t like the US as indicated by your previous comments and attitudes towards Americans and our society. A real shame you can’t see the country for what it really is and not some Hollywood characture you believe it to be.

Wow, you’ve falsely stereotyped a whole country and profession. I for one are glad you won’t be flying on our airlines or coming to our country. Stay away.

Just shows you’re arogance towards the whole world , take the blinkers off there is life outside the US borders ,or is the world that bad you need you’re guns all the time
Surprise!! here in the Uk we dont have guns on Planes, or have to carry then for our own protection I wonder why that is?
I ve been all over the world , In only 2 places have I felt such unease Johannesburg and The USA, but i would go back to Joburg

…but in the USA The RAMBO Attitude seems to prevail over common sense

Wow, you’ve falsely stereotyped a whole country and profession. I for one are glad you won’t be flying on our airlines or coming to our country. Stay away.

0. But to state that you’ll never fly within a country because of one isolated incident is taking things a bit far don’t you think?

Lawdart
In The Free world a person has the right to make their own decisions My decision, have been made after more than one unreported and reported incidents that relates to security and general safety in the USA since 9-11 , and this event justifies my attitude not to fly with in the USA

So The holster has a Known issue, then why do the continue to use it?
It is Simple , you dont have to be to clever to relise that if the equipment is faulty then leave it well alone , even if it means leaving the Gun behind, but in the USA The RAMBO Attitude seems to prevail over common sense

.40 cal? That’s for wussies!

😀 exmpa

0. But to state that you’ll never fly within a country because of one isolated incident is taking things a bit far don’t you think?

I quite agree but, there again, I wasn’t the one who said that. 😎

How many accidental discharges of firearms within the cockpits of airliners would you regard as unacceptable, then?

2? 10? 20?

Give us a number, and tell us why. 😎

0. But to state that you’ll never fly within a country because of one isolated incident is taking things a bit far don’t you think?

My belief is that the pilot is only authorized to carry while “on duty”, i.e. when flying the airplane. Anytime they are not, they must remove the weapon and stow it away. I agree it seems that it would be actually safer to limit the number of times a pilot would handle the gun and keep it on his/her person more. It’s an evolving program so perhaps there will be changes in procedures to help avoid this. An event such as this could very well help speed along some better procedures for everyone.

Whiskey Delta.

“Langenhahn, 55, is part of the Federal Flight Deck Officer program run by the Transportation Security Administration. He was stowing the 13-shot, .40-caliber pistol when it discharged — piercing the cockpit wall and fuselage — while the plane was preparing to land in Charlotte late Saturday morning, according to the report.”

Can anyone explain why the pilot is required to “…transfer the gun and holster from his flight bag to his belt multiple times during a flight, pilots said in interviews.”

What is the logic and motivation behind this? If we assume, as you suggest, that the pilot is adequately trained in the use and control of firearms and is clearly competent, I also assume that you would agree that any procedure which puts the weapon handling crew member in a position where an accidental discharge is possible is absolutely ludicrous? Would you further agree that this regular and unnecessary handling of the weapon during the course of a flight in which no threat is evident only increases the likelihood of accidental discharge?

All seems very strange to me that a procedure put in place to protect is liable to place those it is intended to protect in jeopardy/

Regards,

kev35

Here’s some more information for you to chew on. Turns out that this pilot is ex-military, specifically Air Force. So he was trained to fight and fly by the military and he was trained to fight and fly by the TSA. You’re right kevinwm, these armed pilots are a bunch of non-professional idiots, or Rambo types as you put it.

http://www.charlotte.com/109/story/555828.html

Pilot identified in
US Airways gun case
Gun’s holster being investigated
JEFFERSON GEORGE
[email]jgeorge@charlotteobserver.com[/email]
James Langenhahn
Gun On Plane

The US Airways captain whose gun discharged in the cockpit of a Charlotte-bound flight Saturday is a former Air Force pilot who lives in Pittsburgh.

The pilot, James Langenhahn, declined to discuss the shooting Thursday night. “As much as I’d like to talk about it,” he told the Observer, “I can’t right now.”

His name was released, apparently inadvertently, after the Observer questioned the government’s concealment of facts on a police report of the incident.

The in-flight shooting was the first such incident since pilots began carrying guns after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Langenhahn, 55, is part of the Federal Flight Deck Officer program run by the Transportation Security Administration. He was stowing the 13-shot, .40-caliber pistol when it discharged — piercing the cockpit wall and fuselage — while the plane was preparing to land in Charlotte late Saturday morning, according to the report.

Other details released Thursday also indicate that the gun’s holster is being investigated in the shooting. Some pilots have criticized the locking holster system for the Heckler & Koch USP pistol as inappropriate for the program that arms pilots. Transportation Security Administration procedures require a pilot to transfer the gun and holster from his flight bag to his belt multiple times during a flight, pilots said in interviews.

The holster system is designed with a lock that goes behind the trigger, preventing the gun from firing. But some pilots say that when the gun isn’t snapped tightly into the holster, or becomes loose during transfers, the lock can end up in front of the trigger.

David Mackett, a pilot who is president of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance, said he supports the arming of pilots. But he said the combination of the current gun-and-holster system and the requirement that pilots frequently remove the gun when not in the cockpit is “just a recipe for disaster.”

“The locking holster was designed to be used to lock a gun away at the end of the day,” said Mackett, who is not in the Federal Flight Deck Officer program. “You need to put the firearm on an officer where he can control it and not touch it.”

The bullet — fired at about 11:20 a.m. Saturday — struck the left side of the cockpit wall and exited the fuselage below a window. The plane, an Airbus A319 en route from Denver, was at an altitude of 8,000 feet and about eight minutes from Charlotte/Douglas International Airport, according to the police report.

Along with the captain and first officer, the jet carried three flight attendants and 124 passengers — none of whom reported hearing the gunshot.

US Airways has grounded the pilot without pay, and spokesman Phil Gee said Thursday night that Langenhahn would remain grounded during the TSA investigation. Gee didn’t know how long Langenhahn has been with US Airways but said it likely has been several years.

Airport officials released the police report Tuesday after consulting with TSA legal counsel. Sections of the five-page report were blacked out, including names and other identifying information of the pilots, as well as whole sentences explaining what happened as the plane approached the airport.

The Observer asked the TSA to review the report to determine that it had not withheld information that should be public under federal regulations. A TSA attorney on Thursday night faxed the Observer’s attorney a new version of the report.

Most of the narrative was still blacked out. But the new version revealed a few additional facts, including that police took photos of the holster — and the last name of the captain in recounting his exchange with a gate agent.

“… Captain Langenhahn informed her that he was not allowing any passengers on his aircraft until security was on the scene,” the police report states.

In December, the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review newspaper reported that US Airways pilot Jim Langenhahn organized a barbershop-singing tribute to a World War II veteran. The event was partly in memory of his own father, a parachute rigger in the South Pacific. The article identified Langenhahn as a former Air Force pilot.

In 1999, Langenhahn wrote a letter to the editor of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette after a deadly American Airlines crash in Arkansas. He urged the FAA to overhaul its rules governing work and rest period for pilots, which he said would make flying safer.

So it looks like a locking holster malfunction may have led to the lock being run in front of the trigger instead of behind the trigger leading to the trigger being depressed and firing the gun. You’re right kevinwm, these Rambo types playing with their firearm are clearly trying to inflate their egos.

We can all make up hypothetical scenarios. They prove nothing.

You impressively missed the whole point, nice work. My “scenarios” were meant to highlight that inflight the cockpit crew ARE the professionals that everyone must ultimately look to for help in EVERY situation. Kevinwm likes to call specific professionals in his time of need (ie a fireman for his burning house) but an aircraft crew does not have that luxury when you’re 7 miles up. There is absolutely nothing hypothetical about what I said. Something goes wrong it is ultimately up to that crew to handle it.

4 Years service In Her majestys armed Forces , what about you’res ??it might have been a long time ago ,but it something you never forget, it was drummed into us , so that Incidents like this dont happen

The armed forces are no more or less likely to have weapon accidents and I’m sure in your 4 years you came across them. Firearms are safe as long as they are handled properly but a small error can lead to problems. Even in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces…

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6675103.stm

It appeared from your previous comments that you aren’t aware of changes to firearms in the last 20 years as you frequently mention traditional “safetys”. Times have changed or you have forgotten.

My Question still Stands WD what was this Pilot doing with this gun out , (remeber the tree golden rules you metioned)when It should have been securley stowed for Flight,

And my answer still stands, I DON’T KNOW. Perhaps he wasn’t adhering to the rules he was authorized to operate under but none of us where there so why do you expect me to be able to answer that?

It’s a moot point as the actions of 1 can’t lead to the judgment of all. There have probably been 100,000’s flights with armed pilots in the last 5 years and you’re getting all bent out of shape and judging the whole program apparently.

Pilots are trained to Fly Planes , not play with GUNS

Wrong, some pilots are trained to both fly and carry (not play as you so childishly reference) a firearm. You can’t seem to get over that this one incident is the far exception to the rule. Do you believe that all pilots are drunk because of a few pilots who can’t adhere to the rules they are given too?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/08/pilots.trial/

Not to take away from the severity of accident involving a firearm but doesn’t 2 drunk pilots seem to be a receipt for a bigger disaster yet you don’t seem to question the professionalism of pilots for that.

Its That Simple

We don’t live in simple times and this isn’t a simple profession.

So you’ve based your whole displeasure with the program on this accident? Obviously no one has stated that this accident is acceptable and I’m sure a few procedures weren’t followed but how does that invalidate the whole program? Has one aviation accident invalidated your belief in the capabilities of all law/rule/procedure abiding pilots? Has one medical error invalidated your belief in the abilities of every doctor? You hold folks to very bizarre standards.

When One Professional endangers the Lives of so many, with his stupid actions Yes I have very High standards ,
When I fly I entrust my life in a professionals to get me to my destanation safely , not have him endander it by discharging a weapon for no good reason

Not all handguns have a traditional safety as you may envision which is the case for the weapon FFDO’s are issued. Glocks, Springfield and H&K for example offer versions of their handguns that have different safety’s. Springfield has a grip lever that must be depressed and a double/slotted trigger that requires both to be pulled in order to fire. Such systems are used to allow LEO’s to have a gun that is “safe” when not being handled but immediately ready to fire once drawn. H&K provides the guns for FFDO’s and their version of the safety allows the gun to be carried “cocked and locked”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_USP

See above, not all weapons have your movie inspired safety lock. I have this feeling you haven’t taken a gun safety class. These are the 3 cardinal rules for gun safety:

1. Always keep the gun in a safe direction
2. Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot
3. Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use

4 Years service In Her majestys armed Forces , what about you’res ??it might have been a long time ago ,but it something you never forget, it was drummed into us , so that Incidents like this dont happen

If you’re at 30,000′ and the airplane breaks are you going rely on the pilot or are you calling a mechanic?

If you’re at 30,000′ and the airplane catches on fire are you going rely on the pilot or are you calling the fire department?

If you’re at 30,000′ and you encounter weather are you going to rely on the pilot or are you calling the weather man?

If you’re at 30,000′ and someone attempts to breach the cockpit are you going to rely on the pilot or are you calling the Police?

We can all come up with what if,s and you seem to have a really good imagiantion when it come to that ,but the facts remain a Pilot discharged a weapon whilst in Flight casuing the bullet to pierce fusalage of a Plane , the only mitigating facts were no one was injured or Killed
Or Is that not Clear enough for you
My Question still Stands WD what was this Pilot doing with this gun out , (remeber the tree golden rules you metioned)when It should have been securley stowed for Flight,
There was no Valid reason for him to be handling it at the time , when he should be concentrating on flying the Plane (that includes all the other flying duties :rolleyes: )

Pilots are trained to Fly Planes , not play with GUNS
Its That Simple

ThreeDelta ,I havent said that Pilots should not be able to defend themself,My point is This Pilot had no Valid reason to have this weapon out in the first place
I will ask you this question, you enter the flight deck in the course of you’re duties , and the captin is siting playing about with the gun would you feel safe ,

If you’re at 30,000′ and the airplane breaks are you going rely on the pilot or are you calling a mechanic?

If you’re at 30,000′ and the airplane catches on fire are you going rely on the pilot or are you calling the fire department?

If you’re at 30,000′ and you encounter weather are you going to rely on the pilot or are you calling the weather man?

If you’re at 30,000′ and someone attempts to breach the cockpit are you going to rely on the pilot or are you calling the Police?

You’re at 30,000′ and your gun goes off accidentally.

The bullet enters the other crewmember’s thigh and severs a major blood vessel. He’s in considerable pain and bleeding heavily.

Because you’re a real human being, and not some steely-eyed lantern-jawed hero from the imagination of a Hollywood script-writer, you’re shocked and traumatised so you’re not thinking completely clearly.

The cabin door is locked from the inside, and the injured pilot is slumped forward in his seat, rapidly losing consciousness through shock and loss of blood.

The cabin crew are doing their best to cope with an airliner full of frightened passengers, many of whom know a gunshot when they hear it, and some of whom are panicking.

We can all make up hypothetical scenarios. They prove nothing.

WD, You are asking me to answer a what if situation,Yes pilots should be allowed to defend themself ,and i have never said that they cant , I have pointed out that thes person was playing about with a loaded weapon, and discharged it , , you say he was stowing it away , why did he have it out in the first Place , had there been an atempt to gain access to the cockpit, by soime one , as far as i can see No , so whay did he have it out in the first Place,

So you’ve based your whole displeasure with the program on this accident? Obviously no one has stated that this accident is acceptable and I’m sure a few procedures weren’t followed but how does that invalidate the whole program? Has one aviation accident invalidated your belief in the capabilities of all law/rule/procedure abiding pilots? Has one medical error invalidated your belief in the abilities of every doctor? You hold folks to very bizarre standards.

why did he have it cocked , why was the safety catch off???

Not all handguns have a traditional safety as you may envision which is the case for the weapon FFDO’s are issued. Glocks, Springfield and H&K for example offer versions of their handguns that have different safety’s. Springfield has a grip lever that must be depressed and a double/slotted trigger that requires both to be pulled in order to fire. Such systems are used to allow LEO’s to have a gun that is “safe” when not being handled but immediately ready to fire once drawn. H&K provides the guns for FFDO’s and their version of the safety allows the gun to be carried “cocked and locked”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_USP

Variants 8 and 9 (double action/single action, safety lever, but no decocking)
Variants 8 (lever on left) and 9 (lever on right) allow the shooter to carry the pistol in a single-action mode (cocked and locked) with the manual safety engaged. This same pistol, without modification, can be carried in double-action mode (hammer down), with or without the manual safety engaged. The double action mode offers a second strike/double action capability in case of a misfire. The control lever has no decocking function on variants 8 and 9.

Basic weapons training teaches you the only time you Cocked the weapon and have the safety off is when you are about to fire the weapon , common sensence

See above, not all weapons have your movie inspired safety lock. I have this feeling you haven’t taken a gun safety class. These are the 3 cardinal rules for gun safety:

1. Always keep the gun in a safe direction
2. Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot
3. Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use

If my house is on fire i call the professionals to deal with , not a pilot
If im ill I call the professionals not a Pilot
If I want some one to fly a Plane , I call a Pilot, not Rambo

If you’re at 30,000′ and the airplane breaks are you going rely on the pilot or are you calling a mechanic?

If you’re at 30,000′ and the airplane catches on fire are you going rely on the pilot or are you calling the fire department?

If you’re at 30,000′ and you encounter weather are you going to rely on the pilot or are you calling the weather man?

If you’re at 30,000′ and someone attempts to breach the cockpit are you going to rely on the pilot or are you calling the Police?

WD, You are asking me to answer a what if situation,Yes pilots should be allowed to defend themself ,and i have never said that they cant , I have pointed out that thes person was playing about with a loaded weapon, and discharged it , , you say he was stowing it away , why did he have it out in the first Place , had there been an atempt to gain access to the cockpit, by soime one , as far as i can see No , so whay did he have it out in the first Place, why did he have it cocked , why was the safety catch off???

so how about you answering those questions , or is that they way Pilots are trained to carry Guns in the USA , if it is god help us all

Basic weapons training teaches you the only time you Cocked the weapon and have the safety off is when you are about to fire the weapon , common sensence

If my house is on fire i call the professionals to deal with , not a pilot
If im ill I call the professionals not a Pilot
If I want some one to fly a Plane , I call a Pilot, not Rambo

No-one has yet answered what I thought was a perfectly reasonable question:

If you feel that this incident was acceptable, then how many times would firearms have to be accidentally discharged inside the cockpit of an airliner before it becomes UNacceptable?

I’m not interested in the politics or the “pro-” and “anti-” posturings, just a number and (preferably) a rationale.

I don’t think anyone would deem this situation acceptable. I can’t imagine what would have lead to this accident but like any aviation accident it might be wise to keep one’s speculation and contempt for the program until the facts are known. Some folks are more interested in exploiting any error as a reason against armed pilots than anything else.

This is the first incident involving an accidental misfire in the history of the program. Meanwhile there have been quite a number of misfires by Police Officers on duty in that same time frame so I guess we should disband the police.

You didn’t answer my reasonable question.

May I ask what a pilot should do if someone breeched the cockpit? Only fly the plane? If someone approached you as you sat at your computer at work and started beating you with a baseball bat I guess we could assume you would continue to only type away at the keyboard. What may I ask would happen if a pilot turned their attention away from flying the plane for 1 minute? 2 minutes? 10 minutes?

First was any one trying to get into the cockpit at the time this weapon was discharged , answer NO , so what was this guy doing with a this loaded gun that made it go off, certainly not doing his duty which is concentrating on flying the aircraft (derliction of Duty ) Unless his contract states that he can play about with loaded gun at at any time

The reports state he was stowing his weapon. My guess would be that the FO was flying the plane at the time.

Secondly how are these persons going to get acces to the cockpit , if i remember correctly all aircraft were suposed to have amoured doors fitted and that they were to be kept lock during flight, or dose that only apply to airliners outside the USA? and what happened to the Sky Marshalls?

Yes, aircraft are equipped with armored doors but they have one weakness and that is the needs of the pilots. You might consider it a dereliction of duty but surprisingly pilots need to eat and go to the bathroom which would lead one to believe that the cockpit door will have to be opened at some point in the flight. That is the doors weakness.

like i said The Pilots are professionals at their job , flying planes they are not trained to use weapons properly as this incident shows, the millitary and the Police are specially trained to use these weapons , so going by what you have said dose the 1 week course in flying aircraft make either a soldier or police officer a competent person to fly? , would you’re company employe either one ? I think the answer to both would be NO even thought they get 6 month refresher courses, I know who I would rather have at the controls of a aircraft that im in, but if a Pilot wants to play with guns in a cockpit , Join the Airforce

But all armed pilots ARE trained to carry and use their weapon. This incident does not indicate that this or any LEO are not properly trained. In the last 5 years there has been 1 accident involving an armed pilot. How many aircraft accidents have happened in that time? Do you also discount all pilots for being poorly trained as a result. I think you would be surprised the amount of training your average Police officer receives. Do you honestly believe they spent months on the range? It’s more like a few days on the range with weeks in the classroom.

All LEO’s can be permitted to carry a firearm on a commercial airliner after watching a video. How’s that for properly trained? The pilots are trained for the specific aircraft environment while the LEO’s in the back watched a video about gun safety. And you’re more worried about pilots?

For a living i drive a truck, and one thing that the authorities have been raming down our throats is that you can only do one thing safely whilst driving , thats driving , not speaking on a mobile phone, eating my breakfast , reading a paper, playing with a loaded gun, shaving , ect……….
WHY, because its is DANGEROUSE and pepole have been killed

Your comparison between driving a truck and flying an airplane are laughable and shows your complete misunderstanding of the duties and responsibilities of a pilot. You don’t think pilots are eating? Speaking on a radio? Reading? Looking out the window? etc. I put a few thousand hours behind the wheel of charter and transit buses and am quite aware of the differences of being behind the wheel and behind a yoke.

No-one has yet answered what I thought was a perfectly reasonable question:

If you feel that this incident was acceptable, then how many times would firearms have to be accidentally discharged inside the cockpit of an airliner before it becomes UNacceptable?

I’m not interested in the politics or the “pro-” and “anti-” posturings, just a number and (preferably) a rationale.

Like most situations in aviation history, I would say a firearm would have to be discharged accidentally enough times before a serious incident occurs. Because let’s face it, that is usually when people’s ears perk up and things are done/changed.

I’m with WD on this one, I believe if regulations permit and he has carried out the REQUIRED TRAINING, then he is in his own right to further protect the civilians on board by carrying a weapon should it help prevent hijack. With regards to the locked door issue, what IF, the Captain/SFO/FO were to be the hijacker? Controversial I know, but worst cast scenario the pilot flying would have to protect himself within the ‘secure door’.

Anyway, regardless, it was very careless that the gun went off as it did and perhaps he should be one pilot that is not allowed to carry a gun for a while.

No-one has yet answered what I thought was a perfectly reasonable question:

If you feel that this incident was acceptable, then how many times would firearms have to be accidentally discharged inside the cockpit of an airliner before it becomes UNacceptable?

I’m not interested in the politics or the “pro-” and “anti-” posturings, just a number and (preferably) a rationale.

Grey ,
wouldnt hold my breath waiting for a reply :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

All armed pilots are trained for carrying and using their weapon. Every 6 months they requalify with their weapon. It isn’t some sort of fly by night operation.

I find it comical that some folks believe that pilots should only fly the plane. May I ask what a pilot should do if someone breeched the cockpit? Only fly the plane? If someone approached you as you sat at your computer at work and started beating you with a baseball bat I guess we could assume you would continue to only type away at the keyboard. What may I ask would happen if a pilot turned their attention away from flying the plane for 1 minute? 2 minutes? 10 minutes? Personally the longest I’ve gone without touching anything other than a radio tuning knob is nearly 4 hours. I’m surprised the aircraft didn’t come screaming out of the sky in a ball of fire.

First was any one trying to get into the cockpit at the time this weapon was discharged , answer NO , so what was this guy doing with a this loaded gun that made it go off, certainly not doing his duty which is concentrating on flying the aircraft (derliction of Duty ) Unless his contract states that he can play about with loaded gun at at any time
Secondly how are these persons going to get acces to the cockpit , if i remember correctly all aircraft were suposed to have amoured doors fitted and that they were to be kept lock during flight, or dose that only apply to airliners outside the USA? and what happened to the Sky Marshalls?
like i said The Pilots are professionals at their job , flying planes they are not trained to use weapons properly as this incident shows, the millitary and the Police are specially trained to use these weapons , so going by what you have said dose the 1 week course in flying aircraft make either a soldier or police officer a competent person to fly? , would you’re company employe either one ? I think the answer to both would be NO even thought they get 6 month refresher courses, I know who I would rather have at the controls of a aircraft that im in, but if a Pilot wants to play with guns in a cockpit , Join the Airforce

For a living i drive a truck, and one thing that the authorities have been raming down our throats is that you can only do one thing safely whilst driving , thats driving , not speaking on a mobile phone, eating my breakfast , reading a paper, playing with a loaded gun, shaving , ect……….
WHY, because its is DANGEROUSE and pepole have been killed

They only good thing to come out of this was no one was injured, and belive me it will happen again its only a matter of time that some one will either get killed or injured , I look forward to youre coments when this happens