Pilots In Gun Training

and another point of view – what if the pilot was in the same state as the eqyptair suicide pilot a few years bak – ok if he wanted he could crash the airliner, but might seek more attention himself if he wanted to hijack the plane using a weapon as a motive – ok a rare shot but nethertheless a possablilty

A few points and a few of my views-

1) The question of non-operating crews being allowed in the cockpit seems to vary immensely from company to company. Most now seem to be allowing it again (primarily as it may be the only way an airline can position a crew from one place to another without offloading revenue passengers).

2) I am personally in favour of having a weapon on the flightdeck BUT NOT IN THE PERSONAL POSSESSION OF ANY INDIVIDUAL PILOT. I described a perfectly acceptable solution to the gun containment scenario in a thread a few months ago (perhaps someone with more ability than me can find it and post the relevant bit in this thread).

3) In normal circumstances I would be deeply disturbed about a gun being fired in the cabin, however in the event of the much more serious threat of a hostile takeover the subsequent damage from a gunshot or two would be nothing compared to the fact that the whole airframe and the lives it contains has almost certainly been saved.

4) If the gun is already in the locked cockpit it is in the only place where it cannot be used to gain access to the cockpit! The hijacker has already stated his malicious intent by forcing entry to the cockpit so in my book that gives me just cause to shoot to kill. Without having a means of defending ourselves we might just as well voluntarily give up the controls!

5) I don’t want a Sky Marshall as it increases the opportunities for the security process to be breached from within.

6) Mongu correctly said a pilot doesn’t need the gun for him/herself to take control. We are securely locked in with one other person (assuming they are not taking a leak) and have items on the flightdeck that we could use to overcome your colleague if that was your desire (excuse me if I don’t expand too much on that).

7) Security doors are a waste of space as all a hijacker would need to do is to rush the crew while they are going in or out.

8) I’m embarassed to say that I cannot exactly remember the legal position about an overaseas aircraft. If I remember rightly a G registered aircraft is a little piece of Great Britain wherever it is in the world although there is a large grey area which will allow the host nations police department to enter and arrest. Perhaps Monster or SkyCruiser can remind me of the exact details.

9) Pilots go through the exact same poor security that passengers do although I suspect the security people’s guard may not be as raised.

Regards
wys

Yes, I got your point but other crew are supposedly no longer allowed on the flightdeck – certainly not jump seat passengers.

Besides, I have my doubts about the efficacy of reaching for a gun and using it in such tight confines, when also having a plane to fly.

Mongu.

My point about the FedEx incident is that someone tried to take over the aircraft in order to use it as a weapon. Should such another incident occur, and I hope it never does, an armed crewman on the flight deck could easily despatch the other crew members. Conversely, an armed crew member may be able to prevent such an attempt.

Sorry I didn’t make myself clearer.

Regards,

kev35

Kev,

I think it is a bit silly to suspect pilots. If they wanted to cause death or whatever, they have a deadly weapon already – the control stick!

Within the coming years, it is said that one in three pilots will have a gun with them… bringing the total to something like 30,000.

An interesting topic. Just a couple of points.

Gary.

On the news reports at least two women were shown to be receiving the training. I thought the report indicated that the crews were only to be allowed to have a weapon on board on US domestic flights, at least for the time being. Also shown was an example of the new security doors. As to the law when US aircrew are allowed to carry a weapon on services outside the US I have no idea. It would be interesting to know what would happen to the weapon between flights while the crew were, for instance, in the UK.

As for sealing the cockpit in the manner you describe, isn’t that risky as well? Not only for the sake of emergency but you are sealing someone on the flight deck with a deadly weapon? Remember the FedEx incident? What if the disgruntled employee had been flight deck crew?

Do pilots have to undergo the same security procedures as passengers? Isn’t it possible that a pilot could be coerced into handing a weapon over during the flight? Pre-arranged threats to family etc.

Mongu.

I have to agree that I feel it would be better to increase spending on security and counter-terrorism. The old adage that prevention is better than cure still holds true today.

Regards,

kev35

Of course, they could always take the proper option of spending more on profiling and preventive security!

I would hope that the law of the current country would be the law used !…otherwise that makes the pilots, technically highjackers !!!! I mean theyve got the gun with all the passengers in the back forced to go where the pilots goes (Okay, most times they all happen to want to go to the same destination) but I reckon it wont be long before some guy decides to raise a law suit cos of a ‘alternative’ landing at a destination he didnt want to go to (I can see this happening more in the States than here)

Then I suppose next, it’ll be the Right of citizens to bear arms at all times, especially if the driver’s got one up front !!!

The other alternative is to promise to put the guns in a safe when entering a particular airspace…which is then when the baddies will have a go….

Seal off the cockpit completely from the passenger compartment, provide the crew with their own access door, only available whilst on the ground, put a guard on the door (and probably a second guard to guard the first,,,just in case) and then you will see a reduction in air side highjackings

Can one of our pilots help me on this one?

When an aircraft is on the ground, which country’s law applies?

Eg. I think gun posession would be illegal if UK laws applies to US aircraft on the ground in the UK, but obviously not so if US laws had jurisdiction. Or is it not as straightforward as that?

It’s one of those awkward issues, where it is too easy to portray yourself as anti-American by resorting to the “trigger happy cowboy” stereotype. I hope I don’t give that impression.

I know BA have gone on record as being very against the idea of arming pilots, whereas the US airlines seem really enthusiastic about it.

What does disturb me is that US airlines allow pilots to be armed when operating in UK airspace – they can surely do what they like in their own country, but it bothers me that they are allowed to be armed over here.

Having met many American pilots I find the way this is being dealt with is extremely disturbing.

Its bad enough seeing armed guards at the airports let alone knowing full well that the guy in front is also packing a peice !

Are any of our lady pilots going to be trained in the subtle art of pulling triggers ?

Surely the next thing to happen is that future designs of planes will have the cockpit totally sealed off from the sardines in the back with a solid pressure bulkhead and their own access door in fuselage side only accessible from the ground stairs. That would stop the ‘fly me to wherever’ brigade getting their hands on the controls. If they are gonna blow it up though, doesnt really matter where the pilots sit or if they are armed

Interesting.

Two days of training covering many security aspects with some of the time being spent practicing weapon firing. A 0.40″ calibre weapon, (nearly half an inch! They only had .50’s on B-17’s), it just sounds like a recipe for disaster. Some film was shown on Sky News today of the training and of an exercise where sky marshalls took on and disarmed terrorists. I think it gave a false impression. In the main, todays terrorists want to kill large numbers of people and don’t mind dying in the process themselves. They are fanatics.

I sincerely hope I’m wrong, and that the arming of pilots does become an effective deterrent. I’m just wondering how long it will be before someone goes into the air as an airline pilot and returns as John Wayne.

Regards,

kev35