Pilots who flew in both WW1 and WW2

Just to change the subject, I’m very impressed to find a Czech on these pages.
For Xmas my missus bought me ‘Dark Blue World’, which I thought was a really suberb film and left me in tears at the end, as a Czech, what did you think of it.

Pete, I was very interested in aviation from my childhood. For some strange reason my father used to buy my aviation magazines well before I have started to read (he was a doctor). And when i grew up, I became more interested in WWII aviation and our pilots who served in RAF. And I have ever thought that this nation owe our wartime soldiers which fought in the west too much.

I am afraid it would be a matter for another long thread to discuss the things which happened to our wartime heroes here after 1948. But the film left me in tears too. I was then very sad for all the things that happened them in their home country, but proud of the people which made such splendid film a really fine tribute to our pilots.

I am afraid my english is too bad to express all my thoughts on this topic, Pete.

Michal

There were quite a number of German pilots who served in both wars, but the number of those who flew hot air missions in both wars is rather small since most of them were promoted to ranks higher than “Kommodore” before 1939 and thus not holding a “Frontkommando” the second time. The names of the better knowns:

Eduard Ritter von Schleich
Theo Osterkamp
Max Ibel
Werner Junck
Gerd von Massow
Harry von Bülow-Bothkamp
Friedrich Vollbracht
Gerhard Hubrich
Alfred Lindenberger
Erich Mix
Alexander von Winterfeld
Albrecht Ochs
Alfred Mueller
Hasso von Wedel
Joachim-Friedrich Huth
Otto Höhne
Wilhelm Gabriel
Kurt-Bertram von Döring
Hans Klein
Arthur Laumann

Interestingly there were also numerous men who fought in WW1 on the ground first and as pilots later, but returned to the ground forces for the second round, e.g. Wilhelm Bittrich.

Firstly I have to say that I am quite new member of this forum and find it very fascinating. I would like to shortly introduce myself. I am 41 years old classic aeroplane and warbird enthusiast from Czech republic.

Now on the topic.

One name still missing in this thread is Ivan Vasilievich Smirnov. A russian ace of wwi. He is credited (in most sources) with 11 kills of German and Austro-Hungarian aeroplanes. He flew various Nieuport fighters, Morane-Saulnier Is and finally SPAD VIIs. After the bolshevik revolution he made his way out of Russia in early 1918. During WWII he flew with Netherland´s East Indies Army Air corps, obtaining the rank of captain. He was shot down and seriously wounded by Japanese zeros, flying the Dutch DC-2 (or DC-3?). He stopped flying in 1949 and died in October 1959. I believe his life would be worth of a movie.

regards

Michal

Just to change the subject, I’m very impressed to find a Czech on these pages.
For Xmas my missus bought me ‘Dark Blue World’, which I thought was a really suberb film and left me in tears at the end, as a Czech, what did you think of it.

Ivan Smirnoff was shot down while flying DC 3 PK-AFV named Pelicaan ( pelican). It happened the 3rd of March 1942.

Many thanks for info, Mathieu.

Michal

Ivan Smirnoff was shot down while flying DC 3 PK-AFV named Pelicaan ( pelican). It happened the 3rd of March 1942.

Best regards,

Mathieu

Firstly I have to say that I am quite new member of this forum and find it very fascinating. I would like to shortly introduce myself. I am 41 years old classic aeroplane and warbird enthusiast from Czech republic.

Now on the topic.

One name still missing in this thread is Ivan Vasilievich Smirnov. A russian ace of wwi. He is credited (in most sources) with 11 kills of German and Austro-Hungarian aeroplanes. He flew various Nieuport fighters, Morane-Saulnier Is and finally SPAD VIIs. After the bolshevik revolution he made his way out of Russia in early 1918. During WWII he flew with Netherland´s East Indies Army Air corps, obtaining the rank of captain. He was shot down and seriously wounded by Japanese zeros, flying the Dutch DC-2 (or DC-3?). He stopped flying in 1949 and died in October 1959. I believe his life would be worth of a movie.

regards

Michal

I am not too good at WWI topics, but I can think of at least two Polish pilots with combat record from both World Wars:

Stefan Pawlikowski – I believe he flew with a fighter escadrille in France in 1918, and may have scored a victory; he then certainly distinguished himself during the Polish-Russian War of 1920, shooting down some Red Russian aircraft; in WWII he became the Senior Polish Liaison Officer to HQ Fighter Command (i. e. head of the Polish fighter force in Britain) and in this capacity he joined his squadrons on operational missions, he was eventually shot down and killed by Focke-Wulfs on 15 May 1943 in Spitfire IX LZ990 PK-M, borrowed from 315 Sqn.

Ludomil Rayski was a bomber pilot (IIRC) in the Turkish Air Force in WWI; in WWII, in the capacity of Senior Polish Liaison Officer to the RAF HQ in the Meditterranean he flew some combat sorties in 318 Sqn’s Spitfires (tactical recce on the Italian front) and as a co-pilot in Liberators of 1586 (Special Duties) Flight (supply drops to Warsaw during the Warsaw Uprising in 1944).

This chap was not a pilot but is notable – as reported in Contact in June 1943 – in WWII a Leading Aircraftman in the RNZAF, 72 year old W.G. Coleman, was serving in his third war. Hed sereved in the Indian North-West Frontier in 1897-98, then fought with distinction in the Boer War, He fought again with distinction in WWI and by WWII was serving in the RNZAF.

There were many men in WWII who’d served in three wars, but most were by WWII in the Home Guard for their third, not in regular Arme Forces.

Recently I read “Hurricanes over Tobruk”. It mentions the AOC in Egypt, Raymond Colishaw, former leader of the “black flight”. During the first days of fighting against the Italians, he piloted a Vicers Valentia on a night sortie to El Adem.

He had a very interesting career in the RAF until he was finally retired in 1943. I never knew about that. I always thought at the end of WWI he went back into civil life, like many others … 😮

http://www.constable.ca/colishaw.htm

One very noted World War one historian tells of how Collishaw’s victory total seemed to go up over the years. Apparently he was claiming more before he died than he did just after the war!

Recently I read “Hurricanes over Tobruk”. It mentions the AOC in Egypt, Raymond Colishaw, former leader of the “black flight”. During the first days of fighting against the Italians, he piloted a Vicers Valentia on a night sortie to El Adem.

He had a very interesting career in the RAF until he was finally retired in 1943. I never knew about that. I always thought at the end of WWI he went back into civil life, like many others … 😮

http://www.constable.ca/colishaw.htm

Yep, I had worked that one out, but was trying to use it in my defence for accidentally saying co-pilot in my original post – this crap implanted it in my mind.

I wonder, does anyone have Park’s biography? I think it was by Vincent Orange. I’d like to know if the event is detailed.

Lots of spin on that one. Second pilot on a Beaufighter? There is no second pilot position. AVM Park was down the back yelling rather than advising the pilot. This is reporterese, not truth. Don’t blame AVM Park but I doubt it happened as written.

I just found the article I got the Keith Park Malta combat info from. It is in the RNZAF Contact magazine (a wartime social magazine for the Air Force) dated May 1943. It reads:

Dogfight

New Zealander Air-Marshall Sir Keith Park, Air Commander of Malta, was recently in an aerial dog-fight. Second-pilot in a Beaufighter, he was attacked by five Focke Wulfs 190, and a battle commenced with two of the enemy planes. The Beaufighter pumped lots of lead at them, but it’s engine was set on fire.

The engagement was broken off, however, and the Beaufighter returned to its base, 160 miles over the sea. “I was only a back-seat driver,” said Air-Marshall Park, “but I told the pilot to climb before the engine nurned out. We got to 3000 feet – just altitude enough to get the Malta.”

A question for Dave Homewood, Was that a modified Beaufighter? I reckon it would be a bit difficult to be of any assistance to the pilot in a Beau’s narrow cockpit.

I was thinking after I posted that “Did I write co-pilot?”and meant to go back and check. I of course meant passenger. Sorry for the confusion. He was merely riding behind the pilot when they were attacked by German fighters, and was not flying the plane in any capacity. Cheers.

Discussion of the same topic on another forum.

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87

A question for Dave Homewood, Was that a modified Beaufighter? I reckon it would be a bit difficult to be of any assistance to the pilot in a Beau’s narrow cockpit.

I regard Milch and Goering “only” as Pencil-Pushers, scince they did not take part on active flying. The younger brother of v.R., Lothar, died during a plane crash in the 1920s, their cousin Wolfram v.R. was too young to have fought in WWI.

Ah I see. I was ready to be proved wrong there, I blame it on the failing grey matter 🙂 It would appear there are more then I thought.

I’m also wondering whether New Zealanders Arthur Coningham and Forster Maynard who both became aces in WWI and went on to lead from on high in WWII ever flew in that war (Coningham with the Desert Air Force and Maynard leading the fight to defend Malta before Keith Park took over)

I’m about to start reading Coningham’s biography. I’ll let you know!

New Zealander Gill Watson flew with the AFC in WWI and became an ace, and rejoined the RAAF in WWII.
http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/aces/watson.htm

I’m also wondering whether New Zealanders Arthur Coningham and Forster Maynard who both became aces in WWI and went on to lead from on high in WWII ever flew in that war (Coningham with the Desert Air Force and Maynard leading the fight to defend Malta before Keith Park took over)

Keith Park also got into a combat situation in his Hurricane according to a small newspaper report but I don’t know the circumstances or outcome (whether he was jumped by Me109’s or whatever, and whether he hit any).

Not a pilot in both wars but worth a mention is Sydney Carlin.He won a MC and lost his leg in the First,before joining the RFC.He claimed 4 German aircraft and 5 balloons before being shot down and made prisoner.In the Second he joined the RAF as an Air Gunner. While with 151 squadron on Defiants, the airfield was attacked by German aircraft.While running to man his turret, Carlin was killed.