Some interesting developmenst with regards to new frigates and MPAs…
China okays US$ 750 mln deal to supply Pakistan with four frigates
From The News
KARACHI: Pakistan said on Wednesday China has agreed to supply its navy with four frigates, with the 750 million-dollar deal all but completed pending financing discussions.
“The deal is complete as far as its technical details are concerned. We are now finalising the financing of the deal,” Pakistan navy spokesman Commander Aamir Naeed told.
“Pakistan is not looking for other options, because such selections are made after extensive studies and negotiations,” he said.
The frigates, equipped with up-to-date technology, would carry surface-to-surface missiles, anti-aircraft guns, anti-air defence, torpedoes and anti-submarine warfare helicopters, he said.
The chief admiral of Pakistan’s navy, Shahid Karimullah, said the frigates were acquired to strengthen a fleet that had “far lesser capabilities” compared with arch-rival India.
“There is a colossal disparity between the two countries and it is not to our liking.” He said while India had “no dearth” of weapons supplies from Russia, Pakistan’s armed forces suffered due to sanctions imposed over Islamabad’s nuclear programme in the 1990s.
The sanctions were lifted after Pakistan joined the US-led war on terror in the wake of the September 11 attacks in the United States.
Pakistan has since won a spate of economic and business incentives which helped President Pervez Musharraf steer the economy out of stagnation. However Karimullah said despite lifting of the sanctions the country was facing difficulties in finalising defence deals with European countries.
“We are still feeling (the effects of sanctions) that is the reason why we have decided to go with China,” the admiral said.
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/index.html
finalising loan modalities: CNS
By our correspondent
KARACHI: Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Shahid Karimullah on Wednesday said the Pakistan Navy was endeavouring for a $750 million non-commercial loan from China and talks were under way to finalise the loan agreement for building four frigates with Chinese collaboration.
“After the agreement is finalised the first frigate will be with us after four years and all the four will be with the PN in 13 years,” he said, while addressing a press conference on the sidelines of the ongoing defence exhibition, IDEAS-2004, at the Expo Centre here.
Admiral Karimullah also said that the Pakistan Navy was a part of a maritime plan to curb terrorism, human trafficking and narcotics smuggling with a destroyer and helicopters within the country’s territorial limits and in the international waters, he said.
He said the PN was building the Augusta 90-B class submarine and mines-counter vessels, which were acquired from France, frigates with the collaboration of China, and missile boats, fast missilecraft and fast patrolcraft, are up for sale, he said. “Several delegates, participating the International Defence Exhibition And Seminar (IDEAS)-2004, have visited our dockyard and showed interests in buying these equipment, he added.
Comparing the Pakistan Navy with the Indian Navy, Shahid Karimullah said a quantitative gap existed between the two navies, however, the PN was fully capable of competing with the rival qualitatively. “We cannot compete India unit by unit, but qualitatively, we are fully capable of competing with them,” he said.
Replying to a question regarding Indian Navy in the Gulf he said, “Five ships of Indian Navy and two submarines are on goodwill visit of the Gulf region and it is a routine work, it does not mean that Indian Navy is deployed in the Gulf.”
Replying to another question he said, “Being a commander of a force, he wished to have 10 aircraft carriers, but at the movement we required ships and aircrafts not aircraft carrier.” He said, “Pakistan Navy has Sea-King helicopters, which are able to fulfil our needs of anti-submarine operations.” However, talks were in progress with China for getting more helicopters to enhance these capabilities, he added.
He said that the US had agreed to supply P3C Orion aircraft and some would be delivered by November 2004. “Pakistan needs more such aircraft as a replacement of Atlantique aircraft,” he adde.d
By: PAF Fan - 22nd September 2004 at 10:40
Yes, one we recive the first 4 friagates and order 4 more, then 8 will be enough and we can retire the 6 Type 21s
The Atlantiques and F-27s have all gone through upgrades and are equipped with the Thales Ocean Master radar and air launched exocet
Yes, after the first batch of three 90bs PN may order 4 more 90bs or Scorpenes, then we can retire the Agosta 70s
By: Ja Worsley - 21st September 2004 at 15:37
PAF: Interesting news that mate, does this mean that the PN will retire their Type 21’s? and all the other british made ships since spares are becoming a major problem for them?
Good news about the retirement of those Atlantiques, they were really starting to get old, I’m suprised that they are keeping the F-27’s those are older again thanb the Atlantiques.
The Agosta 70’s maybe able to fire sub harpoons but there is not growth potential in them at all, that’s why they had to buy the 90B’s
By: Hyperwarp - 21st September 2004 at 06:22
LY-60N (18km) fired from PN frigate (From Bomberman)
By: PAF Fan - 20th September 2004 at 09:49
Well those Agosta 70’s will be retiring soon. Will the US sell the Orions to the PN? Last I heard they were actually with holding on the deal, as for the Atlantiques, those four were going to be retired once the other 8 Orions came on line
Yes, Pakistan will standardize on the P-3C and use 10 of them plus the 4 Maritime F-27s for shorter range work
Agosta 70s are “only” 20 years old, not very new, but not ancient, and they can fire sub launched Harpoon, the following news may also be of interest to you….
JANE’S DEFENCE WEEKLY – SEPTEMBER 22, 2004
——————————————————————————–
IDEAS: Pakistan plans to buy more ships and boats
JOSHUA KUCERA JDW Staff Reporter
Washington, DC
Additional reporting by Farhan Bokhari JDW Special Correspondent
Islamabad, Pakistan
The Pakistan Navy is seeking to acquire four frigates and four submarines in addition to the four Type F-22P frigates (Jaingwei-II class), currently being negotiated with China, and the three Agosta 90-B submarines being built by France.
“The four ships from the Chinese and the three submarines are not enough to maintain a minimum deterrence,” Chief of Navy Staff Adm Shahid Karimullah said. “We need more. The money is being arranged for us to acquire more submarines and more ships.”
While acquisition plans are still in the early stages, they depend on uncertain funding sources, the Commander, Pakistan Fleet, Vice Adm Mohammad Faroon, told JDW. However, for now the navy is looking at “roughly four” additional new submarines, he said. “More or fewer are possible, if more or less money becomes available,” he said. “You have to look in your pocket and then decide what you can buy.”
The navy is still considering a variety of options for the submarines, but is primarily focusing on a single-hull design and air independent propulsion. “These will be the primary things that guide us,” Adm Faroon said. The design should be finalised by 2005, with work starting in late 2005 or early 2006 allowing the four boats to be completed by 2011-12, he added.
After production of the F-22Ps is started, Pakistan will again evaluate its needs with an eye to acquiring an additional four frigates, Adm Faroon said. “If our experience with the F-22Ps is good, we may go in for another four, with better sensors, better machinery,” he added. The navy is now considering a larger ship – more than 3,000 tons as compared to the 2,400-ton ships under consideration now – with greater endurance, he noted.
Pakistan and China are close to signing a deal for the four F-22P frigates for which they have already been negotiating and only need to work out the details of a loan that China is offering Pakistan, Adm Karimullah said.
“We hope that this loan will be finalised and soon after that we’ll be able to sign a contract,” he said. China was offering a commercial loan and Pakistan was looking for “friendship” terms, he added.
The ships will be equipped with “at least one” each of the naval version of the Hafei Aviation Industry Z-9C helicopter, Adm Faroon said. However, the rest of the weapons and systems were still under negotiation, he said.
The Pakistan Navy also took delivery earlier this month of two additional Jalalal-class fast attack craft-missile boats. “These are the improved version of the ones we had made about four to five years ago. These are faster, with a more attractive weapon load,” Adm Karimullah said.
The procurement plans come amid increasing US-Pakistani naval co-operation (see page 4). Adm Karimullah said one Pakistan Navy destroyer will be patrolling international waters near Pakistan trying to interdict potential insurgent operations. Senior Pakistani government officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Pakistan is offering to support the US naval presence in the northern Arabian Sea, close to the Persian Gulf.
Pakistan has offered to extend unspecified support services to the US Navy if Washington gives consideration to supplying Pakistan with new equipment, such as maritime reconnaissance aircraft, the officials said. “The Pakistan Navy is in the ideal position of being able to be of assistance to the US Navy in such a crucial part of the world,” said one government official.
“Our navy can perform a range of functions from assistance in patrolling the waters of the northern Arabian Sea to providing logistical support wherever possible.”
By: Ja Worsley - 17th September 2004 at 15:42
Well those Agosta 70’s will be retiring soon. Will the US sell the Orions to the PN? Last I heard they were actually with holding on the deal, as for the Atlantiques, those four were going to be retired once the other 8 Orions came on line
By: PAF Fan - 17th September 2004 at 14:58
Am I?
Who said anything about that? I was merarly stating that most of the PN equipment was old and out dated. If had had any influence in the military sector over there I’d be spending a little bit more on establishing a naval force that would have a chance at fulfilling the stated objective, that of Keeoing the IN away from the shore. The PN doesn’t really stand a chance in terms of numbers.
I find this to be grossly optimistic, 5+ Modern Subs, 5 would be believeable. 10 Firgates, they wouldn’t need that many, Four would be better. 10 MPA’s, which type? Russia won’t seel them any nor will any western company and China doesn’t really have any, unless you are talking about those old badgers! The helos are more believeable, at least China has those to sell. No 10+ Patrol/missile boats, this is so under-rated it’s not funny, this area should be built up on a big scale. FAC’s, FAM’s, FF’sand FFL’s are relatively cheap. There are a lot of good designs out there and some builders will sell their designs to Pakistan.
That’s well and good, but what’s going to happen when these old planes run up against planes of a more modern age? Or even still when these planes fall out of the skies before they even get to their target because they’ve been picked off by BVR missiles that they didn’t even see coming?
Given what India is buying in terms of defence, Pakistan is being out stripped in a very big way, but that’s ok because India has already stated that Pakistan isn’t a threat to them now. It’s hard to have a threat if it’s only one sided.
3rd Agosta 90 building, these will be with MESMA and as such have a longer submerged duration then anything else in the region…
2 Agosta 70s and 2 Agosta 90s already in service, pakistan may or may not place a follow on order for another 2 Agosta 90s
2 P-3Cs with Harpoon in service and another 8 on order
4 Atlantics (upgraded) with Exocet in service
4 Jiangwei frigates with European systems on order
I would say the MPAs and Subs are modern……
In a few years, those Mirages will become anti-ship FC-1s, with BVR, which are also on order
hence why I said that in 10 years the current PN will be transformed….
By: Ja Worsley - 17th September 2004 at 14:52
Ja
Your missing the point
Am I?
PN does not want, “power projection”, “blue water navy” or “diplomatic tools”
Who said anything about that? I was merarly stating that most of the PN equipment was old and out dated. If had had any influence in the military sector over there I’d be spending a little bit more on establishing a naval force that would have a chance at fulfilling the stated objective, that of Keeoing the IN away from the shore. The PN doesn’t really stand a chance in terms of numbers.
PN should have around the following in 10 years
5+ modern subs
10 frigates
10 MPA
12 Choppers
10+ patrol/missile boats
I find this to be grossly optimistic, 5+ Modern Subs, 5 would be believeable. 10 Firgates, they wouldn’t need that many, Four would be better. 10 MPA’s, which type? Russia won’t seel them any nor will any western company and China doesn’t really have any, unless you are talking about those old badgers! The helos are more believeable, at least China has those to sell. No 10+ Patrol/missile boats, this is so under-rated it’s not funny, this area should be built up on a big scale. FAC’s, FAM’s, FF’sand FFL’s are relatively cheap. There are a lot of good designs out there and some builders will sell their designs to Pakistan.
in addition it can call upon a dedicated anti-ship PAF mirage 5 sqd
That’s well and good, but what’s going to happen when these old planes run up against planes of a more modern age? Or even still when these planes fall out of the skies before they even get to their target because they’ve been picked off by BVR missiles that they didn’t even see coming?
Given what India is buying in terms of defence, Pakistan is being out stripped in a very big way, but that’s ok because India has already stated that Pakistan isn’t a threat to them now. It’s hard to have a threat if it’s only one sided.
By: PAF Fan - 17th September 2004 at 11:34
Ja
Your missing the point
PN does not want, “power projection”, “blue water navy” or “diplomatic tools”
all that is required is to keep the IN away from the coast for 3 weeks (the maximum time Pakistan expects to fight a war)
An Indo-Pak war will be decided in the land and air
PN should have around the following in 10 years
5+ modern subs
10 frigates
10 MPA
12 Choppers
10+ patrol/missile boats
in addition it can call upon a dedicated anti-ship PAF mirage 5 sqd
Now this may not be enough to defeat the IN, but it should be enough to keep them off the coast for enough time to allow the Army to do its stuff…
By: Ja Worsley - 17th September 2004 at 11:20
Well while China and Pakistan enjoy close ties, I still think the PN has a long way to go in terms of it’s military expenditure. In all honesty only their Army is sufficiently armed.
By: RajKhalsa - 17th September 2004 at 00:49
Its for 4 Frigates and they will be constructed in Pakistan, so at almost $200 million each, that seems quite reasonable price, I would not call it cheap…..
My bad, you’re right. 4 not 5,
I misread
By: phrozenflame - 16th September 2004 at 11:18
‘China may give $750m loan for frigates’
By Shamim-ur-Rahman
KARACHI, Sept 15: Pakistan was in the process of negotiating a $750 million preferential loan from China for procurement and construction of four P-22 frigates for the Pakistan Navy.
This was stated by Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Shahid Karimullah in a news conference on the sidelines of the Ideas 2004 here on Wednesday. He said other aspects of the negotiations with China for the project were complete and only the availability of loan was delaying the commissioning of the project.
If the funding aspect was resolved then it would take at least four years to induct the first of the four frigates. The span of the project was estimated to be spread over 13 years when the fourth frigate would be delivered, he said.
Besides the construction of frigates with Chinese collaboration the navy was also moving ahead with defence production, with special emphasis on naval subsurface and surface construction programme.
He told a questioner that the package negotiated with China for the four frigates included helicopters for anti-submarine role. For the time being, he said, the fleet of Sea King helicopters was enough to take care of the navy’s needs for the next 10 years.
In the context of improving navy’s aerial surveillance capability, Admiral Shahid told a questioner that the US authorities had agreed to assist in the repair of the existing Orion patrol aircraft.
He emphasised that Pakistan would also like to have more P3C that would help in replacing the aging fleet of French Atlantiqe reconnaissance aircraft. Referring to indigenization, he said the navy had over the years acquired capabilities of constructing submarines and missile craft by utilizing indigenous resources not only to meet its own requirements but to pen these platforms to sell in international market.
The navy chief said that delegations from the UAE, Qatar and Nigeria had expressed interest in the fast patrol missile boat landed a few days ago and there was a lot of potential for their export.
He also spoke of the ‘colossal disparity’ in every field with the Indian navy which had no dearth of supply from Russia. For Pakistan, he said, effects of sanctions, as far as Europe was concerned, were still being felt.
He did not agree with a questioner that there was substantial deployment of the Indian navy in the Gulf and said they were on goodwill visit. The navy chief said talks were continuing between Pakistan and India over the Sir Creek issue.
“Our stand is for solving it under the agreement between the then Sindh government and the Bombay government, but the Indian stand is different. However, talks continue on this issue.”
He emphasized that lasting peace in the region could be achieved only by solving the Kashmir issue. Asked whether the navy was planning to acquire an aircraft carrier, Admiral Shahid said that at the moment “we want to maintain minimum nuclear deterrence.
At the moment we want more surface ships, submarines and aircraft. The government has decided to maintain minimum deterrence in conventional and non- conventional fields.”
He also spelt out Pakistan Navy’s role in combating international terrorism and said that a ship and a helicopter were participating in patrolling the sea beyond the territorial waters against terrorism, smuggling of human beings and narcotics for past six months.
http://www.dawn.com/2004/09/16/top7.htm
By: PAF Fan - 16th September 2004 at 09:32
Its for 4 Frigates and they will be constructed in Pakistan, so at almost $200 million each, that seems quite reasonable price, I would not call it cheap…..
By: RajKhalsa - 16th September 2004 at 09:30
$750 mil?
What class ships are these? Seems very cheap for 5 frigates?
Sign In
September 16, 2004 at 9:16 am