Poppy Appeal.

On Sunday my 9 year-old daughter is taking part in the Remembrance parade as a Brownie. I am keen for her to do so but I want to explain to her what it is for. For a 9 year old with a head full of Fairies and One Direction this isn’t going to be easy.

I could not agree more. Last year our 8 year old grandson paraded and they had been fairly well briefed at school and my wife and I made sure he understood as much as an eight year old can what people were remembering.

We introduced our son to the trenches, to Ypres and Thiepval and to both Commonwealth and German cemeteries in Flanders many years ago. But I don’t think most schools do much of a job of teaching youngsters about the two world wars. I think Lincoln 7 referred to it in a different thread.

Heslop.

How could you misunderstand that poem so spectacularly?

Regards,

kev35

Of course the poem actually says.

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Hence my point about the “Glorious Dead” above.

I haven’t actually seen a single advert for this years poppy appeal and even now working in a supermarket, yesterday I didn’t see a single thing regarding the poppy appeal either … :confused:

But still at the end of the day, it’s for a good cause and the memory of the people who had fallen for this country.

It’s as the poem always says, dulce et decorum est pro patria mori … 🙂

Derek.
I always did say the universe was a queer place.
I say this now because I find myself agreeing with you for the second time in a week.
Perhaps we should declare peace..?
Good luck on Sunday.

I raise these questions because remembrance has always been somewhat unclear in my mind–believe it or not.
I’ve stood at Lochnagar crater at 07.30 hrs on a July 1st morning with tears streaming down my face and a heart full of indignant anger before now–not easy when trying to sing ‘Abide With Me’ at the same time.

My own view is that not much good ever came of war–apart from a lot of bl**dy misery.

Please continue giving views.
Andy

I used to be fairly ambivalent towards the poppy appeal, largely because of my father’s and indeed grandfather’s influence. My dad was always annoyed that WW1 and 2 got all the attention but the other conflicts never did (he served in Cyprus in the late 1950s). Then along came the Falkands war and suddenly all the other conflicts were remembered (and not before time). Those lost in Malaya, Korea, Aden , Cyprus, Northern Ireland and lately GW1 and 2 and Afghanistan (and the myriad other conflicts) are now rightfully remembered.
I think my dad also had a problem with the appeal being named after Earl Haig, who was arguably responsible for many of the casualties in the first place
My grandfather’s ambivalence was different. He served in artillery in North Africa and Italy and Greece from 1942 until 1946 I think. He never wore a poppy and certainly never paraded. He wondered who on earth would want to see some old boys parade wearing some tarnished old medals. He rarely spoke of his experiences and largely thought it was all a waste of time. I suspect there were many like him.

A few years ago I read a book called The Unknown Soldier by Neil Hanson. This got me hugely interested in WW1 and especially its day-to-day conditions. But we still perpetuate the myths today. “The Glorious Dead” it says. Well, as someone said, there was nothing glorious about drowning in a shell-hole or being blown to very tiny pieces or having your dugout being held up by bones because where your trench is, used to be cemetery a few years ago. I still don’t think the true horror of WW1 has been told. Maybe it will be in two years time. Maybe it needs a “Saving Private Ryan” sort of film.

One aspect of WW1 I hadn’t appreciated was that “mass hysteria” and mass outpourings of grief were not new. They weren’t invented when the Princess of Wales died. When the original wooden Cenotaph was built, there were so many flowers they had to be removed regularly and in 1920 people filed past the tomb of the unknown warrior for days (it might have been weeks – I need to check).

On Sunday my 9 year-old daughter is taking part in the Remembrance parade as a Brownie. I am keen for her to do so but I want to explain to her what it is for. For a 9 year old with a head full of Fairies and One Direction this isn’t going to be easy.

My comments on each of your points.

Moving on from my original post a little.
Do you think it’s right or wrong that a person should be attacked on ‘Twitter’ because he appeared on stage without a poppy? Neither, but that’s because I would ban Twitter tomorrow, given the chance!
Or:-

There appears to have grown up a poppy wearing etiquette–where folk can be criticised for wearing a poppy in the wrong place or having the green leaf bit incorrectly placed–who are the perpetrators of that?
This isn’t hearsay, I’ve actually heard myself, an example of this recently. Ridiculous. Wear your poppy with pride, where you wish.

I might ask a further question.
If we keep the memory of those who died alive in our own hearts and minds, does it actually matter if we wear a poppy or not? No.

If it’s of interest to anyone, in the two minutes silence, so many names and places come back to me that I’d need five minutes of silence to order them all and remember them.
I also tend to have at least one RBL wooden cross in the car (usually left over from a battlefield somewhere) that I can place, should I need to.

I might therefore resent being questioned myself over not having a visible poppy. And you would be justified in that resentment.

Thoughts as ever appreciated.

Andy

Moving on from my original post a little.
Do you think it’s right or wrong that a person should be attacked on ‘Twitter’ because he appeared on stage without a poppy?
Or:-

There appears to have grown up a poppy wearing etiquette–where folk can be criticised for wearing a poppy in the wrong place or having the green leaf bit incorrectly placed–who are the perpetrators of that?
This isn’t hearsay, I’ve actually heard myself, an example of this recently.

I might ask a further question.
If we keep the memory of those who died alive in our own hearts and minds, does it actually matter if we wear a poppy or not?

If it’s of interest to anyone, in the two minutes silence, so many names and places come back to me that I’d need five minutes of silence to order them all and remember them.
I also tend to have at least one RBL wooden cross in the car (usually left over from a battlefield somewhere) that I can place, should I need to.

I might therefore resent being questioned myself over not having a visible poppy.

Thoughts as ever appreciated.

Andy

I take issue over your assertion that Silences for other occasions denigrate the Great War. How can they? They are marks of respect and I’m pretty confident that you feel and show that respect for those killed in subsequent conflicts. You don’t have to observe any silence Charlie, it’s not compulsory, the choice is yours.

At the end of the day it’s a personal thing, no right or wrong, you just do what you believe to be right.

For me, Kev, there is a world of difference remembering those who died in the service of their country to a footballer, for example, dying of natural causes. There has been a growth in recent years of displays of public grief and remembrance which I personally find mawkish.

Of course the choice is mine and I restrict it to Remembrance Day. And, as you say, of course there is no right or wrong and I would never criticise those who wish to express their feelings more widely. I just don’t support it myself.

I feel no pressure from the RBL at all, its my choice and I do so freely. In fact, I confess that I feel almost guilty passing a Poppy seller, and usually end up buying a few poppies as I loose them and I really don’t like to be without one.

I have never felt pressured into donating to the RBL. I don’t believe their advertising this year is any more aggressive than any other year, in fact it seems conspicuous by its absence. I have not seen a single Poppy seller since the appeal was launched.

I found Inkworm’s opinions to be somewhat at odds with mine, but that is his right. I would, however, question his reasons for reaching certain conclusions. He wrote…..

“Whilst I support the charity there does seem to be a feeling now of it being compulsory. Also looking at some shows it seems to be a bit of a fashion statement with the original meaning being lost or diluted.”

Why do you feel that it is compulsory to donate or to wear a Poppy? Do you feel it compulsory to donate to and wear a green pin for NSPCC? Or to donate to the RSPCA whose advertising is far more aggressive (I don’t want to let any abandoned animal down and I’m sure you don’t either)? Which, roughly translated, means give us the money or the puppy dies. Or how about another charity closer to an aviation forum, VTTS, who now appear unable to raise the money for further flight or even to complete winter servicing. How aggressive has their advertising been?

How can you declare the wearing of a Poppy by an individual to be nothing more than a fashion statement? Unless you’ve asked the wearer to explain their understanding of Remembrance or their personal reasons for wearing said Poppy, how can you make such a sweeping assumption?

My next point is tied into the following quotes from Inkworm and Charlie respectively….

“Certainly it is important to remember those who have been injured, suffered or lost their lives in conflicts but can we not be allowed to do it in our own way instead of being dictated to?”

Who is dictating? You have a simple choice, one might suggest that the very people we are discussing died to give us such choices, you either donate and wear a Poppy or you don’t? You are being no more dictated to by the RBL than any one of a hundred other charities who advertise either equally or more aggressively and all year round.

“I do not agree with poppy wearing much before the day and in fact only wear mine on the day. I worry slightly that Armistice Day has evolved a long way from its original intention, much as I resist the demand to remain silent for a whole array of deaths and remembrances at public functions. It denegrates the memory of the “war to end all wars”. The silence should be on November 11th and at no other time.”

Armistice Day has become a focus for National Remembrance and I personally see nothing wrong with that. I take issue over your assertion that Silences for other occasions denigrate the Great War. How can they? They are marks of respect and I’m pretty confident that you feel and show that respect for those killed in subsequent conflicts. The silence for the Great War is held on Armistice Day and on Remembrance Sunday. You don’t have to observe any silence Charlie, it’s not compulsory, the choice is yours.

It’s not a one day a year thing for many people either. look at threads on these forums by historians such as Andy Saunders, Dil Sarkar and many others. They work throughout the year towards preserving memory, the recent case of Dennis Copping springs readily to mind.

At the end of the day it’s a personal thing, no right or wrong, you just do what you believe to be right.

regards,

kev35

Andy, I support the RBL, and buy my Poppy, at the local Tescos, there is no pressure whatsoever on Joe Public to donate.
My half brother, number 2, was in the Forces, (Army), and he caught some bug, and got a very bad infection in both legs, and had to have the lower part of his legs amputated.
The RBL, has paid for an electric buggy, and also to have his car adapted, and his house adapted for his disability, so behind the scenes, they do a good job, however as most of us, if we feel we are being pressured into buying something, we walk away.
Seems like the new agency has managed to shoot itself in the foot.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

I think John Snow summed it up a couple of years ago with his opinion and yesterday on the BBC News 24 one of the presenters had a rant at the poppy fascists who were complaining at the leaf being at the wrong angle and a host of other perceived etiquette infringements.

Whilst I support the charity there does seem to be a feeling now of it being compulsory. Also looking at some shows it seems to be a bit of a fashion statement with the original meaning being lost or diluted.

Certainly it is important to remember those who have been injured, suffered or lost their lives in conflicts but can we not be allowed to do it in our own way instead of being dictated to?

That’s interesting, because I was thinking the other day that a week away from the 11th and I had not been aware of much advertising. Mind you, I think I have developed an automatic “spam” filter as far as any advertising is concerned.

I do not agree with poppy wearing much before the day and in fact only wear mine on the day. I worry slightly that Armistice Day has evolved a long way from its original intention, much as I resist the demand to remain silent for a whole array of deaths and remembrances at public functions. It denegrates the memory of the “war to end all wars”. The silence should be on November 11th and at no other time.