How many Martinets were supplied to the Portuguese Air Force? Presumably they were ex RAF or RN and were supplied to Portugal post war. The attached image of a Portuguese Martinet certainly appears to have been taken post war (at Woodley?) because, under a magnifying glass, the elevators and fins of a Gemini are apparent. Did the Martinets carry serial numbers in Portuguese service? None is apparent on the attached image and the same goes for the image of the Portuguese Martinet which appears in ‘Miles Aircraft since 1925’ (Don L. Brown). Where in Portugal were they based and until when did they continue in service with the Portuguese Air Force? Finally what became of them? Sorry that there are so many questions but I have been able to find very little information about the Portuguese Martinets – at least in a language that I can read!
By: Brian Doherty - 16th May 2009 at 23:28
Hi, I can’t add anything to this thread, but is there any mention in the book ‘Wings Over Woodley’, I can’t tell as someone pinched my copy, also have you tried getting in touch with the Berkshire Museum at Woodley who are a fount of knowledge on Miles products.
Hope that helps
Cheers Brian Doherty.
By: avion ancien - 15th May 2009 at 18:18
Regretably I have not been able to trace one jot of information about the French Martinets – but never say never!
By: Consul - 15th May 2009 at 17:03
Whilst not a Martinet, I thought you might be interested in this model of a Portuguese Miles Master which I found in the museum at Alverca last week.
Tim
By: avion ancien - 10th March 2009 at 11:22
Manju was a spammer and will be troubling you no more.
The clue was his occupation “Search Engine Optimisation Executive” I guess he thought it was a good way to get traffic to his clients site.
Thanks to Jan for the heads up.
Moggy
Moderator.
I learn a little every day. However one would have thought that if Manju had been a little more intelligent he would have tried his ruse on a more popular thread rather than one as obscure as Portuguese Miles Martinets!
By: Moggy C - 10th March 2009 at 11:12
Manju was a spammer and will be troubling you no more.
The clue was his occupation “Search Engine Optimisation Executive” I guess he thought it was a good way to get traffic to his clients site.
Thanks to Jan for the heads up.
Moggy
Moderator.
By: Jan - 9th March 2009 at 17:42
Avion Ancien,
Thanks. However, the more I research and write about aviation history, the more I realize how little I know…
I also had some difficulty understanding Manjus post. If Manju could clarify, that would be of great interest.
There seems to be precious little information available on the Martinet in French service. No idea how long they lasted, but speculating a bit, the Martinets would have been replaced as soon as possible by ‘home-grown’ products.
Regarding the Belgian Martinets, these URL’s provide some good information and photos: http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Photos/MilltaryPics/post_ww2
/MilesMartinet.htm
and http://belmilac.wetpaint.com/page/Miles+Martinet+TT.1?t=anon
Regards,
Jan
By: avion ancien - 9th March 2009 at 17:06
Jan, thank you for proving to be a mine of information – as usual. I’ll see what I can find concerning the French Martinets.
This section is dedicated to one of the most intricate aspects of the Portuguese Military Aviation history : the serialling or identification systems applied to military aircraft. Only recently, and with the help of some official documents, we were able to clarify the different systems used in the identification of our military aircraft. Presented below are the conclusions to which we arrived (published already in MAIS ALTO – Air Force magazine), explaining the systems used, in a chronological order.
Manju, have I missed something or are the conclusions, said in your post to be presented below, missing from it? I would dearly like to see them.
By: manju - 9th March 2009 at 09:27
suggestion
This section is dedicated to one of the most intricate aspects of the Portuguese Military Aviation history : the serialling or identification systems applied to military aircraft. Only recently, and with the help of some official documents, we were able to clarify the different systems used in the identification of our military aircraft. Presented below are the conclusions to which we arrived (published already in MAIS ALTO – Air Force magazine), explaining the systems used, in a chronological order.
By: Jan - 9th March 2009 at 08:24
Beginning in 1943, ten Martinets were supplied to Portugal. They were operated by the army air arm, the Aeronautica Militar, with the s/ns 430 to 439. Four were transferred to the naval air arm, date/s unknown, and reserialled as M-1 to M-4 respectively.
According to the relevant Air-Britain books on RAF serial numbers, four, HP217, MS610, MS611 and MS612 were delivered to Portugal on 5 September 1943, with three more, RG979, RG980 and RG981 being delivered on 14 August 1946.
When an independent air arm (the Forca Aerea Portugesa, FAP) was established in 1952, the remaining Martinets were still in service, and subsequently transferred to FAP. However, soon afterwards, they were withdrawn from service.
The largest foreign operator of the Martinet was France, for which 40 were transferred in 1945/46. Does anyone have information on these aircraft?
Incidentally, I am (slowly) assembling material for a book on the Miles M.25 Martinet, in RAF, RN and foreign service. A much maligned aeroplane in my humble view. Eight Martinets were operated here in Sweden by Svensk Flygtjänst AB (Swedish Air Service Ltd), until withdrawn in May 1951. Sadly, nothing remains except part of a canopy, which was presumably latterly used as a greenhouse!
Regards,
Jan
By: chumpy - 8th March 2009 at 23:32
Mine is the 1987 edition…
By: avion ancien - 8th March 2009 at 17:42
Many thanks, Consul, for expanding my knowledge as to post-war Portuguese Air Force serial allocations. Maybe with this information someone can elaborate on the history of PortAF serial no. 437.
A couple of ’em would look to be RG980 & RG981 according to Brit Mil A/C Serials by Bruce Robertson.
Thanks Chumpy. You must have a different edition to me. Mine (1979) is silent, in the notes column, as regards a Portuguese connection for any of the Martinets/Queen Martinets in the RG882 to RH365 serial allocation range!
By: chumpy - 8th March 2009 at 15:54
A couple of ’em would look to be RG980 & RG981 according to Brit Mil A/C Serials by Bruce Robertson.
No other mention that I can see in the above volume, or in a couple of Air Britain serials books that I have.
Cheers, Chumpy.
By: Consul - 8th March 2009 at 15:35
I can only find reference to one. In Andrade’s work “Spanish and Portuguese Military Aviation” it mentions serial 437 as a Martinet TT1. (The Portuguese did also allocate serial range 411 – 418 to Master IIIs) The serial ranges of PortAF a/c were changed from 1952 and Miles Masters II and III were to have been renumbered in 1400 range but the aircraft were all withdrawn shortly after the new system and none were actually renumbered. There is no mention of a revised post-1952 srerial for any Martinet – so does that imply they only had one and that it didn’t survive after 1952 …..I haven’t a clue!
In the Miles Putnam there is an illustration of a Portuguese Martinet but its serial is not evident and interestingly its scheme is slightly different from your picture in that the whole rudder is painted including the balance horn but the wings appear to be silver.
Tim
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March 8, 2009 at 3:10 pm