Possible F35B failure and consequences for Carrier design

won’t the 35B stratigicly better than the 35C because of the more places it can land but makes sacrfices on range and bomb load. its stratigic advantage which is its only advantage over the 35C

Scooter, cant you see that YOU listed the F35C as one of the aforementioned planes that the F35B was going to be better than.
The problem is how much the expensive F35B will be really ‘good’ face to F18, F35C, Rafale or others Russian naval fighters?

I guess you didn’t read my comments closely enough? I said it would be superior to all of the “4th Generation” fighters listed above. The F-35C is a 5th generation fighter………..Regardless, all models of F-35 will be clearly more capable than any 4th Generation Fighter Flying today. More expensive likely but cheap only get you shot down! 😮 Mute point……….

FLY NAVY 😎

Scooter, cant you see that YOU listed the F35C as one of the aforementioned planes that the F35B was going to be better than.
The problem is how much the expensive F35B will be really ‘good’ face to F18, F35C, Rafale or others Russian naval fighters?

It would be a nice thought but probably not. If the F35B was cancelled the MoD would probably go for the F35C and fit cats to the CVF. The cost of developing a new VTOL aircraft would be prohibative.

The UK joined the JSF programme not just because they wanted a VSTOL aircraft but also because they needed a stealth aircraft. Any domestic Harrier replacement would need to be both VSTOL and stealthy. Again nice thought but unrealistic. BAE seems to be putting a lot of effort into UCAVs rather than new manned aircraft.

You can’t take out the politics I am afraid so the F-35B is very likey. Nothing wrong with the STOVL lighning II. It will be a great CAS Strike Fighter and perfect for operating off LHA/LHD’s. Yet, from over the Horzion the F-35C would be better at Projecting Power from a far……………………..

Scooter, do you really think the F35B is going to be superior to the F18, F35C Rafale, or other Russian naval fighters?

With the exception of range it will be vastly superior to all of the 4th Generation Fighters you listed! :diablo:

FLY NAVY 😎

To get back to the thread, if the F35B were to be dropped for any reason, would or could the Brits come out with a new version of the Sea harrier / Harrier? Is so what would it be like?

It would be a nice thought but probably not. If the F35B was cancelled the MoD would probably go for the F35C and fit cats to the CVF. The cost of developing a new VTOL aircraft would be prohibative.

The UK joined the JSF programme not just because they wanted a VSTOL aircraft but also because they needed a stealth aircraft. Any domestic Harrier replacement would need to be both VSTOL and stealthy. Again nice thought but unrealistic. BAE seems to be putting a lot of effort into UCAVs rather than new manned aircraft.

I too believe that f35B will surface sooner or later & is more likely to be seen flying off a new RAN LPD than the RN [Pigs might fly] CVF

No – as long as the F-35C was still extant, we’d buy that instead. Since CV(F) is designed to be able to accommodate CTOL gear if needed, this wouldn’t represent a major drama.

Exactly, and the C variant is the safest of them all in terms of project survival.

No – as long as the F-35C was still extant, we’d buy that instead. Since CV(F) is designed to be able to accommodate CTOL gear if needed, this wouldn’t represent a major drama.

To get back to the thread, if the F35B were to be dropped for any reason, would or could the Brits come out with a new version of the Sea harrier / Harrier? Is so what would it be like?

Scooter, do you really think the F35B is going to be superior to the F18, F35C Rafale, or other Russian naval fighters?

I think F35B will born soon or later. That’s sure. USMC, Uk, Italy and not yet officially also Spain they need it.
The problem is how much the expensive F35B will be really ‘good’ face to F18, F35C, Rafale or others Russian naval fighters?

Well, the F-35B performance will be close to its Carrier and Landbased Cousins. Yet, with the added weight it will loose range, warload, and some agility. Regardless, as a whole it still will be superior to the aformentioned…… :diablo:

Not likely at this point for a number of reasons. The main one is regardless if the UK purchases the STOVL F-35B the USMC will and the export market will be great. Countries like Spain and Italy will want the F-35B with or without the UK. Remember all three variants share much in common which is a big selling point. Personally, I think the RN would be better served with the (CV) F-35C. Possibly, with a smaller number of F-35B’s going to the RAF! Of course that is another debate. Yet, back to the point the F-35B will go on regardless if the RN/RAF purchase it. End the end the UK will buy one type or maybe two. Eitherway the F-35 will go on…………………

Got to say, I agree on all counts.

The F-35B has a role in forward air bases or with rough airstrips, but for the carriers we might as well go the whole hog and get the F35C. Its simply much more capable.

I think failure of the F35B increasingly unlikely, and the sad reality for anybody operating STOVL type carriers (UK, Italy, Spain etc.) is that any other possible alternative will probably end up at least as expensive once development costs and lead times are taken into account, especially if people are seriously proposing trying to convert STOVL hulls to a configuration like STOBAR. Ultimately, my own view is that the F35B could kick start much wider adoption of maritime air power as navies can field a high performance, highly capable fighter off modest sized flat tops with dual function, such as using LPHD type vessels.

Not likely at this point for a number of reasons. The main one is regardless if the UK purchases the STOVL F-35B the USMC will and the export market will be great. Countries like Spain and Italy will want the F-35B with or without the UK. Remember all three variants share much in common which is a big selling point. Personally, I think the RN would be better served with the (CV) F-35C. Possibly, with a smaller number of F-35B’s going to the RAF! Of course that is another debate. Yet, back to the point the F-35B will go on regardless if the RN/RAF purchase it. End the end the UK will buy one type or maybe two. Eitherway the F-35 will go on…………………

Scooter, I agree it isn’t likely, but you’re a little off track. Unless I’ve completely misread him, he wasn’t talking about the RN cancelling their order. He was talking about the B being dropped for internal US reasons, & foreign buyers having to adapt.

couldn’t cavor be turned into a very small catobar carrier as thats the ship the indian s are useing for their ads-1.

The Indians aren’t building a copy of Cavour. They’re building a bigger ship (ca 30-40% heavier), with design assistance from the Cavour designers. And anyway, ADS ain’t CATOBAR, it’s STOBAR.

You probably could turn Cavour into a CATOBAR ship, but what would you fly off her? Too small for Rafale, F-18E or F-35C. You’d have to spend the money to develop a cat version of Gripen or Tejas, or develop a new fighter. For one small carrier. Might be cheaper to build a bigger new ship.

I think F35B will born soon or later. That’s sure. USMC, Uk, Italy and not yet officially also Spain they need it.
The problem is how much the expensive F35B will be really ‘good’ face to F18, F35C, Rafale or others Russian naval fighters?

Not likely at this point for a number of reasons. The main one is regardless if the UK purchases the STOVL F-35B the USMC will and the export market will be great. Countries like Spain and Italy will want the F-35B with or without the UK. Remember all three variants share much in common which is a big selling point. Personally, I think the RN would be better served with the (CV) F-35C. Possibly, with a smaller number of F-35B’s going to the RAF! Of course that is another debate. Yet, back to the point the F-35B will go on regardless if the RN/RAF purchase it. End the end the UK will buy one type or maybe two. Eitherway the F-35 will go on…………………

couldn’t cavor be turned into a very small catobar carrier as thats the ship the indian s are useing for their ads-1. the price tag for the f35 we won’t know untill they are comming from the production line.

naval trainers i don’t see the point exept if you use them like moden day skyhawk for basic strike no point using them for much eles.

CVF would be built as CATOBAR, & the RN would buy F-18E, Rafale or a naval Typhoon.

Small carriers? Really small ones?Yes, it’d be the end. The Spanish & Italians would run on their Harriers for as long as possible, but eventually, would have to give up. At that point, PdA & Garibaldi would probably be retired – they’ll be quite old by then. Cavour could be refitted as a large LPH. She already has a limited amphibious capability. If Spain or Italy want to keep fixed-wing carrier-borne aircraft, they’ll build bigger carriers.

I don’t see anyone bothering to build naval versions of trainer-based light fighters. But a naval version of Tejas is already planned. Sea Gripen would need someone to pay for development, which I wouldn’t think worthwhile unless you planned to build a fleet of small carriers. In which case, you could build fewer but bigger & buy off the shelf.