PPLs

As far as handling performance is concerned the Warrior is slightly less responsive and has a heavier feel to it

Since its basically impossible to fly a C152 with 2 people in without being over the W&B limit what are you supposed to do? Go to the gym a few times before the flight? I agree that many accidents are caused by pilots ignorance, but as its almost impossible to fly the C152 without being over the limit is the choice not to fly? (I moved onto the PA-28 by the way, so I dont break the limits anymore).

Yes, the choice, as in many other circumstances, is not to fly. Read the accident reports. Bad decision making = potential accident (possibly fatal).
There is NO excuse. Aircraft weight limitations may often be annoying but exist for a reason. Nobody has the right to knowingly put others at risk – ever.

It is capable of holding four people, but nervousness would not be a very good argument for taking the rest of your family with you, would it?

If you think it is going to crash and kill you (It won’t, trust me), then best none of you get aboard. What would your poor mum do with all her family wiped out at a stroke?

Seriously, a small aircraft is like a small boat. It bobbles up and down in the air currents just like a boat bobs on the waves, but it will never ‘sink’

If I were you I’d take the flight with just an instructor – you’ll have a great time and it really is your very first flying lesson. Get yourself a proper pilot logbook – the flying school will sell you one, and after the flight write in, with their help, your first lesson.

They really will respond to you if you convince them that you are a prospective pilot rather than just a ‘trial flight passenger’. Buying a logbook is a good way to show you are committed.

Have fun.

Moggy

This explanation is very true but I think I can put it in simpler terms for you. If the instructor has the controls all is well, if you have the controls and the instructor has his hands in his lap all is well 😀 Even if you are nervous before take off do it anyway as you will wonder what if … for the rest of your life if you don’t. If you find yourself enjoying the flight be prepared for a life time of treating the symptoms as there is no known cure for the flying bug.

You can Dean – its just when you get someone who’s a bit large sat next you that fuel becomes a consideration.

I blame, our consumerist, Americanised culture where being obese is acceptable myself 😉

Since its basically impossible to fly a C152 with 2 people in without being over the W&B limit what are you supposed to do? Go to the gym a few times before the flight? I agree that many accidents are caused by pilots ignorance, but as its almost impossible to fly the C152 without being over the limit is the choice not to fly? (I moved onto the PA-28 by the way, so I dont break the limits anymore).

Yes it’s a predicament but the bottom line is, it’s still illegal, and it still warrants your insurance invalid, as FC suggests Im sure you can fit 2 medium sized adults in a 152 without being outside the limits (only flew one twice, can’t remember)
MINIDOH, how do you find the difference between the 2 aircraft as far as handling performance is concerned?

Dean

All you fattys should hit weight watchers and the gym – the w&b isn’t that restrictive!

Since its basically impossible to fly a C152 with 2 people in without being over the W&B limit what are you supposed to do? Go to the gym a few times before the flight? I agree that many accidents are caused by pilots ignorance, but as its almost impossible to fly the C152 without being over the limit is the choice not to fly? (I moved onto the PA-28 by the way, so I dont break the limits anymore).

As they say, there are old pilots and then there are “bold” pilots, but very few old and “bold” pilots.

Flying is fun, but often unforgiving when simple stuff like W&B are ignored.

C152’s have a pretty small weight limit in them. When my instructor and I were flying in it we were over the legal weight limit, and I am only 12 stone. He isnt fat either! I flew a PA-28 with an instructor and two people in the back. Over the legal limit? Yes. Safe? Certainly wasnt unsafe. Same thing happens hundreds of times everyday everywhere. The only problem is that if you crash it is the captains fault for not complying with the rules.

And being outside W&B limits renders the insurance invalid does it not?

MINIDOH
If he was over the W&B limit then of course it was unsafe, as we all well know the limitations are put there for a reason, too many people mess with aviation safety in this area and it really gets on my t*ts, it’s like me being on top a skyscraper, shall I step over the edge? hmmm, I’ll just put my feet over the railings, but its ok, its not unsafe as I can still hang on to the railings.

How many of us do takeoff & landing performance charts before flying? probably not many, and there are other areas too that I think we GA pilots are just too lax on.
My mates say to me, “ooo you lucky thing, what a great hobby etc” but I reply to them with this “yes, Im privaliged to be able to do it but lets not lose sight of the fact that Aeroplanes kill people” and generally as a direct result of the actions of the pilots

D.

Still, woudl you rather it was spent on furthering my interest in flying, or spent on a Chav’s council house??? :diablo:

LOL

Im going for option 1 😉

C152’s have a pretty small weight limit in them. When my instructor and I were flying in it we were over the legal weight limit, and I am only 12 stone. He isnt fat either! I flew a PA-28 with an instructor and two people in the back. Over the legal limit? Yes. Safe? Certainly wasnt unsafe. Same thing happens hundreds of times everyday everywhere. The only problem is that if you crash it is the captains fault for not complying with the rules.

Be carefull Danny
A PA-28 140 is only certified to carry 3 people although it has 4 seats, a PA-28 150 Cadet can carry 4 but has weight & balance issues once you get to 4 adults, and a PA-28 160 should be ok as long as you are all medium sized adults, obviously always take the W&B into consideration for every flight and there may be ‘some’ exceptions to the things Ive stated above.

Dean

Oh, my instructor had four people in that 140. Bad man!

DME

so THATS why Im paying £11,000 per yr to the taxman?

And IMHO (biased) worth every penny!

so THATS why Im paying £11,000 per yr to the taxman?

Yep, you probably paid for my 20 hours gliding when I was in the ATC as well! :diablo:

Have I missed anything guys?

Moggy

Yes Rob, there are 8 exams altogether, Aviation Law, Meteorology, Human Performance & limitations, Navigation, Aircraft Tech, Aircraft Performance, Radiotelephony Writen, Radiotelephony Practical

Dean

Have I missed anything guys?

Moggy

Only that your first solo leaves you with a really stupid grin on your face.

It strikes me as likely that Danny may not know the structure of the PPL course. Knowing this will help him see what he can do whilst under 16 and what remains to be done afterward.

I did my training nearly twenty years ago so if I get things wrong can somebody who is more current correct me please.

To get a licence to fly a single engine aircraft of less than 5,700Kg (Most of them) you will need to complete a syllabus, laid down by the JAA. The minimum number of flying hours you can complete this in is 45.

There are also a series of ground exams based on multiple choice question. These are really simple since one answer is always obviously and so you really only have a choice of two. You can study for these at a ground school which may, or may not be at your flying school, or at home using one of two alternative sets of books (Thom or Pratt). Passing through self study, with your instructor helping out on the bits you really can’t grasp from the books is hard work, but perfectly possible.

From memory the ground subjects are Weather, Aviation Law, Aircraft Technical, Radio Telephony, Navigation and something called Human Factors (?) of which I know nothing as it came after my time

The initial part of your flying training is designed to get you actually flying a circuit in the aircraft. Take off > turn crosswind > turn downwind > turn base > turn final > land.

Each of the four turns is 90 degrees so you end up landing where you took off having flown for about four minutes. The day you do this on your own, after somewhere between 6 and 20 hours training is called your first solo. This is the bit you cannot do until you are 16.

Most people then go on to start their training in cross country flying. This usually takes the form of a flight around a route with an instructor, followed by a flight around the same route solo. First just turning at the waypoints (corners) then landing at them (At which time the waypoints are, fairly obviously, aerodromes). It would be possible for you to do the dual flights pre-16, but not the solo. However, instructors have nerves of steel so they could do ‘simulated’ solo, where you do everything and they stay absolutely quiet and assist not at all, but it must be hard to resist cheating.

So you can reach a stage where at 16 you do your first solo, follow it with the solo cross country flights, then go on to the tests.

These tests consist of a qualifying cross country. A three leg flight of not less than 150 miles (?) landing away at two aerodromes then returning.

And a ‘Skills Test’.

When I trained the skills test didn’t exist, we had to take a Navigation Flight Test and a General Flight Test. I think the skills test combines these two but somebody who has actually done one might be able to help.

So you see what you can do and what you can’t pre-16.

45 hours is a minimum, there is no maximum, you will be entered for your tests when you are ready.

There is something called an NPPL that seems to promise you get it all done in less time. If you are serious about a lifetime of flying steer clear of this, which is really only of benefit to people nearing the end of their flying career and with medical problems (The medical is less strict)

Have I missed anything guys?

Moggy

Cost to me = £15 messing. Cost to taxpayer = £££££s!

so THATS why Im paying £11,000 per yr to the taxman?

Is a pA – 28 capable of holding 4 people cos im going on a trial flight or something with my dad and bro and im kinda nervous. neva been in a small plane. Jus huge jets 😮

Be carefull Danny
A PA-28 140 is only certified to carry 3 people although it has 4 seats, a PA-28 150 Cadet can carry 4 but has weight & balance issues once you get to 4 adults, and a PA-28 160 should be ok as long as you are all medium sized adults, obviously always take the W&B into consideration for every flight and there may be ‘some’ exceptions to the things Ive stated above.

Dean

I would definately have to recommend the Air Cadets. Loads of free flying esp if you become a staff cadet at a VGS like me. I am fairly sure there is one in N.I.

Sam

664 VGS was at Sydenham. Off hand, I can’t remember whether it is still active. This link might help:

http://www.aircadets.org/