Preservation of our Industrial Heritage

I agree with Mr twin otter and have not forgot the hard work that has been done on NAM’s behalf, though the thread is about the many facets that we encounter in the general mainstream of museums. And I fear that most museums and others in the preservation world will still have a very small younger demographic and that while the museums such as NAM do get that small amount of ATC who are keen in our field, what about the fringe museums like the watch and clock types and the many other strange things around, do they have a younger bias, and that’s what worries me more as every thing has its place in history. I would like to know how many small museums have fallen by the wayside in these groupings as that could have some bearing on what the trend may be.

I guess that the ATC situation is like many things in life – with some Squadrons you will have a good arrangement, with others it may not be so positive; perhaps it’s just the luck of the draw! I cannot speak highly enough of the Squadron that NAM is involved with. :applause:

As for Risk Assessments that’s something that you have to work with e.g. with the hedge planting that the ATC did, NAM had received a grant for the plants, guards and canes and it was a condition of the grant that any volunteer work had to include a valid Risk Assessment; so that doubled up for the ATC’s requirement. In that situation it also covered the fact that the cadets were working along the bank of an open watercourse (hedge being planted to improve that safety aspect of the site) – so they received an appropriate safety briefing before they started; also one particularly challenging section was planted by me!

Bruce, I also offered my time to a local ATC but when I offered to give aeroplane related talks, talk about our Spitfire and bring the Merlin in, the senior people involved had no interest at all. They only wanted to talk about guns marching and other trivia!!! Then they wondered why numbers were falling. I pointed out “Air training corps” I was basically told not to come back. So, the kids lost out!!!
So, no one can say I didn’t try, as for risk assessments,,, I gave them
All I had for the Merlin, insurance the lot. They then wanted to know about noise levels. I said – it’s loud and powerful – then left.
Like I said, there loss, I won’t offer again.

Steve

I did spend some time trying to work with a local ATC squadron.

Problem was that they wanted written risk assessments for the smallest thing that the cadets were likely to do, and as it meant I would have to write them, it didn’t happen. Not enough hours in the day..

Ho hum.

Bruce

Whist not specifically being individual museum members, jag636 forgets the excellent association that NAM has with one particular local ATC Squadron. It’s cadets have been trained to open aircraft cockpits and undertake guiding duties; they have devised trails for other young people and visiting ATC Squadrons; they provide ceremonial guards of honour for commemorative events at the museum; articles written by the cadets for the NAM newsletter are regularly featured and contribute towards Wing PR targets; they have planted hedgerows for the museum, as detailed in this link; and they provide drill displays at museum events, even teaching visiting members of the public how to drill.

They were also one of the best set of car parking organisers that I have ever worked with, but a change in ‘Wing Policy’ means that they are no longer allowed to undertake this function at the museum – something that I find a little sad; however the other activities will hopefully continue.

Whilst the above involvement may not be considered as being mainstream preservation of our industrial heritage I feel that it provides an excellent grounding for the cadets in aviation; is beneficial to NAM, its visitors and hopefully the cadets; and it provides excellent opportunities for community engagement. 🙂

Its important to note that if it were not for people who have vision we would not have the many types of museums mainly ran by the many volunteers in all types of things, from aircraft to shoes or clothing and all things in between then its fair to say that we would all be watching TV or just playing games. History shows that IF people don’t save things that either show how the world has moved on or made history like say the spitfire or lightning then they would have failed to do the right thing to teach and preserve for others coming behind. I personally feel that if duplication does not occur then we run the risk of doing the same as the RAF museums poor management re: the Beverley and the B1 Vulcan at Cosford these types do still hang on, but only just in one case for now at least. That said we have also seen a cull of late re: VC 10 and whilst they do stand a chance I do know that while they are being saved at the moment how long before they fall foul of not being looked after, I know we ALL want to preserve but I know from first hand knowledge that looking after small as well as large airframes is hard work and I applaud anyone who tries to do the work and what’s more keep them live like CWJ in Brunters. But there will always be a place for the statics like Midland or the many others that have grown all over the world and the reason why I don’t have a problem with duplications is due to the fact that travel and monopoly should not be allowed to make a dent on the pocket or the countryside. And why should we just support the government sponsored museums when the money is ours anyway, but the work that goes into the charity run section is far more worthy of help. I am a member of such an organization and am proud of the people and work that such a committed band of brothers can achieve, and on a very tight budget. The sad thing with all of these hobbies is the demographic is getting very old and little is changing in that way. How can we change that I have no idea but I do know that time is not on our side and how we get the young in god only knows and its a baton passing that seems to have to happen. Our youngest member is in his mid forties and I am 53 so that seems to be how its going on at the moment. Add to that anyway the rise in buying costs and shipping costs of new exhibits and you will start to see a slowing down in the growth of museums, so once again there are problems that will come to the fore. We all need to pool together and try to find away to do what we do best and that’s for the whole of society and not just for ourselves.

A few points from my perspective as a 45 year old aircraft enthusiast working in the Aerospace industry with a youngish family.

The comment “The reality is that after late teens, people find other things to interest them, like girls (or boys!), then they study, go to Uni, get jobs, families, commitments etc.” Accurately describes my situation. I’d love to volunteer at my local museum, Tangmere, but I can’t guarantee my availability. Too much other stuff like getting the children to do their homework, keeping them fed & watered, get them to Cubs, Rainbows etc. Juggling that with a job takes up 90% of my time. The other 10 % I’m generally cream crackered. So I’m going to be one of those retiree volunteers.

However, wrt getting the youngsters involved I would say there is much interest out there if you make them aware.

I’m involved with an organisation called “STEMNET” (Science, Technology, Engineering, Maths NETwork) through work. This is a collection of people who work in Science, Technology, Engineering & Maths related professions who go out to schools/colleges and other organisations to introduce youngsters to these subjects. It is backed by our employers and allows us to show the Fun/Interest Factor of what we do and how they themselves can aim to do these things.
My experience has been that children ARE interested in these things (engineering) if you present them properly and make the youngsters realise they are accessable.

Could the museums/preservation organisations get together in a similar manner to spread the word. Is the BAPC the correct body to oversee this or is something else needed ? You won’t get everyone interested but only a fraction of a % would help.

The company I work for now runs an apprenticeship which takes approx 10 -14 apprentices a year in the UK in an effort to assure a supply of young people with the right skills. We have found that there is a large number of applicants for these apprenticeships, which shows that there is still interest in manufacturing here. Unfortunately there are not the jobs out there to go with that interest now.

One thing I have found with the apprentices, as good & keen as they are, is there does not seem to be the basic engineering grounding that people my age had from helping dad with the car, building models, playing with Meccano etc.

On a more personnal level, my two sons aged 8 & 10 are interested in aircraft, cars, tanks etc. They thoroughly enjoyed Hendon & Bovington tank museum. Tangmere has been visited on a fair few occasions. They love the Lightning even though they have never seen one move. They still talk of when they we allowed in the cockpit of the Sandringham at Solent Skies several years ago.

As for hands on stuff, I’ve had them in the shed on my small lathe & milling machine, which again then enjoyed. They keep requesting that I teach them MIG welding but I’ve resisted that so far, but not for much longer.

As a parent I have learnt that you generally need interactive/exciting exhibits with youngsters. One area where Tangmere scores is with it’s use of flight simulators. The time out function after a few minutes being an inspired feature that cuts out any arguments about who’s had the longest go.

One sad comment though was “Dad, why are all the jet fighters made in America these days”. This also emphasised that we need to make the general population more aware of what we do actually do/have done in this country. Does the BAPC have a media policy/officer to this end ?

So, from all this I would say as long as you make youngsters aware and make it accessable and hands on, you will get some interest from the them. UK manufacturing isn’t quite dead yet, though I have see skills and knowledge lost as the older generations retire. Getting together a central reference/database of processes would be a good idea before it is too late. Though I recognise it may already be in some cases.

I seem to remember a thread from a few years ago where a museum was trying to recruit youngsters to do an apprenticeship restoring historic aircraft but couldn’t get anyone interested. My memory is that it was a Spanish museum who had received an EU grant of some sort. Does this show the general lack of interest by a young generation?

For the sake of some clarity my observation: “There are more aviation museums; but equally there are more other forms of transport and ‘yesteryear’ collections / hobbies as well.” – was based on a comparison from 1973, when I started out in this hobby.

As an interesting comparison -I looked out my ‘bible’ from my early museum visiting days – Bob Ogden’s ‘British Aviation Museums’ published by FlyPast. Of a total of seventy two groups and museums – twenty seven have ceased to exist! Whilst we have hopefully learnt lessons in all those years -its sad that some museums have formed and disappeared since the book was published !

I have tried to consider the issues raised in the OP and I have made a couple of comments on this thread so far; what follows are some almost random thoughts and observations, grouped under some general headings, which for whatever reason don’t necessarily offer any firm answers.

I became involved in aircraft preservation as a 13 year old schoolboy in the 1970s; I was the one given the ‘menial’ jobs, but my love of aircraft and certain determination not to be beaten saw me persevere – one way and another I’ve been involved ever since.

Things that haven’t changed:

Firstly I don’t necessarily believe that the ‘volunteering profile’ has changed that much since I started – there certainly weren’t that many youngsters involved when I joined NAM and I feel that aspect has remained fairly constant. It may have moved a bit towards the older age group, but perhaps this reflects people’s extended life expectancy.

The outlook has always allegedly looked ‘bleak’ – I attended a BAPC Conference at Iron Bridge more than 25 years ago; where one keynote speaker, foretold the demise within 10 years of every Vulcan that had just been purchased by museums and were displayed outside by non-national collections.

There will always be examples of how not to do things; in my personal experience some of this has arisen from armed forces personnel, who perhaps ought to know better.

People have always expressed concern about the future, when I started out that tended to be during car journeys to air displays or to collect exhibits; it then moved to the pub; and I guess now it is on Internet fora.

Things that have changed:

Aviation generally has become more accessible. When I started for me the mere chance of getting to go inside an aircraft was a key driver; now so many people use aircraft to travel they do not have quite the same mystique they once did.

There are more aviation museums; but equally there are more other forms of transport and ‘yesteryear’ collections / hobbies as well.

There are more individuals that own aircraft cockpits and the like. Just a thought, does this individual ownership perhaps dilute the number of people that are volunteering at a museum? Perhaps it does, but surely that is something that should be embraced and encouraged as a least some effort is being made to save something!

At NAM the actual time when people volunteer has changed – when I started it was one night in the week and on a Sunday; then it moved slightly to include Saturday as well. Currently weekends are lower volunteering days and mid-week days are more the norm, especially Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. Perhaps this reflects more early retirees and more flexible employment patterns.

Opportunities & the future:

There needs to be an acceptance that national standards like Accreditation are a good thing, not least because they’re designed to encourage and enhance best practice. However there is an inevitable consequence that this will limit what can perhaps be done and indeed how it is done. Also this will ruffle the feathers of some groups and individuals, but I believe this is a price worth paying.

There is a healthy number of ATC Squadrons; D of E groups looking for ‘service’ opportunities; and Scouts studying for aviation badges etc. – these youth groups need to be engaged and encouraged to become more involved.

Volunteering opportunities are being promoted by various government led initiatives. I believe that these need to be considered carefully, due to the various factors and expectations that are now being placed on museums, e.g. paying travel expenses; implementing volunteer contracts; grievance procedures; etc. These items can be divisive and potentially alienate the existing and well-established styles of volunteering that are prevalent at many organisations.

‘Where there’s a will there’s a way’ – e.g. old skills such as the application of fabric can be relearnt and are not necessarily lost; but perhaps just have to be re-learnt.

Manage expectations – people should not expect just to turn up and be given the job of restoring the prize exhibit, as that privilege has to be earned. While some ‘volunteers’ may be lost along the way because of such policies, but I suspect that has always been the case.

Try to minimise the growing trend towards everything being viewed with a ‘risk adverse’ outlook – not easy I know but it should be encouraged wherever possible.

Wondering would our moderators consider putting a sticky on the forum where museums / organisations could advertise for assistance/offer their services or even offer training courses/facilities for volunteers?

I am curious how much would it cost really for a half day seminar on tackling corrosion, or the correct way of paint removal or even how to mark out, drill and rivet a couple of pieces of ali together that volunteers could attend , then afterwards, the museum prints out a certificate of attendance, does not cost a lot to do this but to some it means a lot and its something to show others, may even give some a sense of achievement. I know one question will be how many volunteers would actually be willing to pay a few quid to put towards attending something of this nature or maybe another could be why should they?

If a few museums just got together on a local level to organise something like this, it may help retaining volunteers rather that just attracting them and praying they come back each week at what could be low cost.

I for one don’t expect a national museum such as the RAFM will get involved but some of the smaller establishments may be interested enough to participate.

What do other forumites think?

regards

Jason

The issues are from groups not looking at the bigger picture. There is too much duplication -too many groups with the attitude of we saved it therefore we will do what we like with it for better or worse. The whole sector needs to move away from being groups that sort of work together to a far more co-operative enterprise.
In terms of the practical preservation -many museums need to stock take what they have and seriously reduce airframes and focus better on the viable and significant.
Looking at the last twenty years -we have seen examples of museums folding because they didn’t understand how to make the preservation pay for itself -poor presentation and
expansion without any thought to how airframes would be maintained .

In short to keep preservation viable -we need to focus on the possible – make volunteer time worthwhile and give the volunteers of the future airframes that are viable rather than corroded hulks.

Bob,

Yes, I did make the point above, that this thread was not for name calling.

Whilst I sympathise with your plight, I would also say that it is not entirely relevant to the thread. The idea is to discuss organisations who are preserving, restoring and conserving items, in effect for the public good (long term), but who are, perhaps falling short.

Howard has rightly mentioned the excellent work done by BAPC on the skills initiative, but that has gone, and is unlikely to come back. Is there something else we can do to ensure the appropriate conservation of historical heritage items within the volunteer sector?

There are some excellent examples of what can be done – for example the work on the Mosquito prototype at Salisbury Hall. The question is, how can we address the opposite issue?

Bruce

Beep…….unexpected item in the cockpit area, please wait for assistance…….

Sounds ghastly…!

I believe at least one Sopwith snipe had the B&Q longeron fitted, and with regards to the all important traceability, the sticky bar code label was left in place!

As my last reply to this post was deleted for some unknown reason “I have asked why, but have received no answer”, I will re-write it in a slightly different way.

Some so called restoration companies do use items & materials sourced from B&Q etc, in place of the correct materials etc, usually without telling the customer that they have done so.

I’m not sure if the project you are refering to, is a project that was rebuilt “totally screwed up” by a certain company in the Staffordshire area, if so it was a Bristol F2b fuselage “mine”, not a Snipe.

The so called restoration company used a number of items in the rebuild, that were sourced from B&Q/Homebase, which I did not find out about untill I dismantled the fuselage again “due to pi55 poor workmanship etc”, these parts included timber “pine instead of Sitka spruce”, garden wire for the bracing wires instead of carbon steel, softboard centered ply instead of marine/GL1 grade, phillips headed screws instead of slot headed ones, & the use of soft aluminium sheet, to replace useable original steel fittings. And yes they did leave some of the barcodes on a couple of the parts.

The soft garden wire “ends threaded for the forkends” they used for the bracing, had less strength in it than even the most heavily corroded originals. If any one had tried to sit in it, it would have disintergrated around them.

I hope this rewritten reply meets with the moderators approval !

Bob T.

Time will tell!

Since that post in GD about the ‘Tornado flypast’ the other day during the school visit; I’ve been giving this thread some thought and when I have more time I will try to gather some observations together.

On the subject of making a topic interesting and engaging for young people, whilst the Tornado flypast was exciting, their real involvement came from very simple exercises like: making a paper plane; answering some questions about the scientific principles involved in flight; fair tests; launching their planes alongside the Varsity in Hangar 2; repeating the test with ‘the plane launcher’; and then watching my attempts to explain why some planes had gone further when they threw them as compared to the ‘launcher’.

Maybe and of course thousands of youngsters have been helped through the Princes Trust and over a much longer period the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award scheme inspiring commitment and achievement as some of us can vouch for.
As you yourself have shown it is possible to engage youngsters if resources are available.

Might this represent an opportunity for involving more young people?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25019567

Perhaps we even have a ‘Royal lurker’ about these parts!! 😀