Príncipe de Asturias

Got to be said that PdA does look a touch gold-plated as an anti-pirate C3 platform. The French are supposedly disposing of the Siroco shortly and seeing that her sister is quoted as costing the Chileans a ‘mere’ US$80mn, for a fully operational unit, the cost differential to the PdA’s refit is stark. Maybe you miss the RAS(L) capability but dry stores and vertrep is clearly viable…plus you have that well deck for light boats/interceptors.

The yanks have tested RQ21 from a San Antonio successfully and a few of those configured with AIS and imagers plus a few more set up for comms relay is going to be an effective way of extending the surface plot. Even moreso if you could borrow a couple of the USN’s radar-MQ8B’s. All told with the aviation, small boat and troop capability my view would be that the Sirocco (or even the US$130mn for a new build Endurance LSD) would represent a better solution than the PdA-plus-refit.

Re UVAs using the skijump, I said ‘may’, not ‘must’. You can use many a fixed wing UAV from the deck by means of a catapult or RATO, and retrieve with a net or hook.

Meanwhile, I do seem to recall recently seeing a pic of a IAI Hunter UAV rolling off the deck of a US LHA/D…

She gives ability to replenish other vessels at sea (and not just by vertrep but also by her own starboard side RAS station), has ample flight deck and hangar space, full maintenance facilities (i.e. endurance/staying power) and command/control infrastructure for coordinating multiple assets. I doubt a merchant ship conversion could give that and still be cheaper.

1) None of those have ski-jumps. AFAIK nobody has tested any UAVs off ships with ski jumps. I’m sure it’s possible, but it’s an additional expense & delay.

If you want the sort of UAVs which can be launched via catapults & captured by a net or hook, you don’t need an aircraft carrier. Any old ship will do.

2) You mentioned a ship for LOCAL anti-piracy patrols, operated by the local countries. The logical purpose of such a ship would be to carry helicopters, small fast boats & soldiers. Short-range UAVs would also be useful. Long-range, long-endurance UAVs could be operated from land. They don’t need to be launched from the ship to relay information to it. Extending the range & endurance of other ships is probably not needed (remember, they’re locally based) – but if it is, modifying a merchant ship would still probably be cheaper.

For the role you describe, the sensor & C&C suite of PdA would be overkill. It’s also old, & probably in need of replacement of a lot of hardware. That refit, again . . . . Then, there is the operating cost, which you keep ignoring.

You want a high-specification warship, fast, powered by GTs, with a sensor & C&C suite designed for fighting wars, for pirate-hunting. Why? You can buy a bigger merchant ship, running off standard, low-maintenance, fuel-efficient diesels for which parts are plentiful & cheap, & skills to operate & maintain are plentiful, for probably less than the cost of refitting PdA. You can fit a good OPV-style sensor suite (relatively cheap, & plenty for the role), a hangar & helicopter deck, extra fuel tanks & RAS gear, & troop accommodation, without having to butcher the ship (i.e. it’s relatively cheap to do), because there’ll be room to spare. Weapons able to overpower pirates cost almost nothing: pintles to mount HMGs, operated by the troops you carry, & their other weapons. You get a floating base with a smaller crew than PdA needs (ship crew is 600 – not including aviation), much lower maintenance needs, & longer endurance. You’re spared the cost of hiring, training, & retaining hundreds more new sailors than you’d need to operate a basic ship – & that’s more than just money! You’re talking about this ship being operated by navies which struggle to find & retain enough skilled nationals.

If you want a real warship to use as an ASW helicopter carrier, I think PdA could be worth buying. But I can’t see the logic of buying her as an amphibious ship, or anti-pirate mother ship, as you suggest.

What condition are the Thai AV-8S Matadors in?

http://thaimilitary.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/x7407538-10.jpg?w=450&h=339
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk152/analayo/Children%20Day%202552/X7407538-7.jpg
http://aircraftdown.blogspot.nl/2011/03/royal-thai-navy-av-8s-matador-harrier.html

(1997) McDonnell Douglas AV-8
 9 handed over by Spanish Navy 24-Oct-96, & delivered 1997 on aircraft carrier ‘RTNS Chakri Naruebet’
 operated by Squadron 1 Wing 3 (‘RTNS Chakri Naruebet’), but by 1999 only 1 aircraft was believed to be
airworthy because of lack of available spares;
 retired from service 2006

INdividual aircraft details on page 14-15 of this: http://www.thai-aviation.net/files/Navy.pdf

Yes, an interesting idea, but it still falls foul of the cost of a refit (note that this is not optional: she needs a lot of worn-out equipment replaced), & there’s the problem of getting UAVs to work off the ski-jump. How practical is this? What development would it need?

Re UVAs using the skijump, I said ‘may’, not ‘must’. You can use many a fixed wing UAV from the deck by means of a catapult or RATO, and retrieve with a net or hook.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_Navy_060818-N-8547M-002_An_Unmanned_Aerial_Vehicle_(UAV)_Scan_Eagle_launches_from_the_flight_deck_aboard_the_amphibious_assault_ship_USS_Saipan_(LHA_2).jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_Navy_060818-N-8547M-001_An_Unmanned_Aerial_Vehicle_(UAV)_Scan_Eagle_lands_in_the_skyhook_for_recovery_on_the_flight_deck_aboard_the_amphibious_assault_ship_USS_Saipan_(LHA_2).jpg
http://news.usni.org/2013/05/02/new-hybrid-uav-and-helo-squadron-stands-up
http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=uav%20%22assault%20ship%22&source=web&cd=18&cad=rja&ved=0CG8QFjAHOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.virtualacquisitionshowcase.com%2Fdocument%2F888%2Fbriefing&ei=R5e8UaaoDfSA0AW15AE&usg=AFQjCNFOSzwgsMiP5sVu_DiTLIMYI9Ce8g&bvm=bv.47883778,d.d2k

Meanwhile, I do seem to recall recently seeing a pic of a IAI Hunter UAV rolling off the deck of a US LHA/D…

I’m pretty sure that if what you want is a platform for helicopters & short-range UAVs for anti-piracy patrols it could be done much more cheaply. Such a ship wouldn’t need high speed, military damage resistance, or many other features PdA has. A merchant ship conversion would be perfectly adequate, & much cheaper to operate.

She gives ability to replenish other vessels at sea (and not just by vertrep but also by her own starboard side RAS station), has ample flight deck and hangar space, full maintenance facilities (i.e. endurance/staying power) and command/control infrastructure for coordinating multiple assets. I doubt a merchant ship conversion could give that and still be cheaper.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]217627[/ATTACH]

I doubt it’s good. They’re about 35 years old, were well-used by Spain, & were retired by Thailand several years ago. Do they still exist?

I was of course talking when the Skyhawks were purchased for the US. Which, was before the introduction of ASEA Radars.

The A-4AR upgrade entered service in 1998. At that date, the RAF fighters on the Falklands had Foxhunter, & the RN had Sea Harrier FA2s with Blue Vixen. Compared to those, a downgraded APG-66v2 was not advanced. It was a budget radar, suitable for a budget aircraft.

What condition are the Thai AV-8S Matadors in?

what about ex british harriers

Sitting at AMARC
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2153741/Languishing-Arizona-mighty-fleet-Harriers–sold-price-just-ONE-US-replacements.html

Regardless of the threat, there aren’t any Harriers to buy. The USMC just bought the RAF’s entire stock for spares. They’re needed to keep the fleet in the air: they won’t be sold on, & the fact that they were bought shows how improbable it is that any of the existing fleet will be considered surplus.

The US purchased the ex-RAF/RN Harriers. Because they were cheap and available and a inexpensive source of spares. Nonetheless, that doesn’t mean the US wouldn’t consider export a few secondhand. While, I wouldn’t personally consider it likely. I doubt it totally out of the question.

Nor does anyone else have any for sale.

Correct or at least not today……….

Get over it, mate. These childish fantasies are a waste of bandwidth. All they achieve is to make you look like a fool – and maybe a troll.

Just harmless speculation and just something to debate. Really, just kicking around various ideas. Such remarks are really uncalled for. Nobody forces you to join the conversation. If, you like present your view and move on……………..

BTW, the radar on those Skyhawks is reported to be a downgraded version of the AN/APG-66v2. It’s not exactly state of the art nowadays.

I was of course talking when the Skyhawks were purchased for the US. Which, was before the introduction of ASEA Radars.

Regardless of the threat, there aren’t any Harriers to buy. The USMC just bought the RAF’s entire stock for spares. They’re needed to keep the fleet in the air: they won’t be sold on, & the fact that they were bought shows how improbable it is that any of the existing fleet will be considered surplus.

Nor does anyone else have any for sale.

Get over it, mate. These childish fantasies are a waste of bandwidth. All they achieve is to make you look like a fool – and maybe a troll.

BTW, the radar on those Skyhawks is reported to be a downgraded version of the AN/APG-66v2. It’s not exactly state of the art nowadays.

You could flog the Sea Harriers that have been kept in storage for yonks/used for deck handling training etc by the FAA, they will be knackered and not airworthy, would take several kings ransoms to put into service again, probably wouldn’t be sold with Blue Vixen either so would need to buy another radar for them and spend some money on weapons integration too.

It would be hellishly expensive for what would be a very marginal capability but it would be in keeping with the idea of buying an expensive to run ship in desperate need of a refit…………..

Load her up, not with ASW heli´s but e.g. with a combination of UAVs (which may use ski-jump, if not rotary wing), armed utility helicopters and helicopter gunships and then put her out on anti-piracy patrol duties in the Arabian Sea, Gulf of Aden or thereabouts? Wouldn´t require a very expensive modernization, just maintenance / basic refit. Might Saudi Arabia be able to fund this, or possibly some of the ´Gulf States´ together?

Yes, an interesting idea, but it still falls foul of the cost of a refit (note that this is not optional: she needs a lot of worn-out equipment replaced), & there’s the problem of getting UAVs to work off the ski-jump. How practical is this? What development would it need?

I’m pretty sure that if what you want is a platform for helicopters & short-range UAVs for anti-piracy patrols it could be done much more cheaply. Such a ship wouldn’t need high speed, military damage resistance, or many other features PdA has. A merchant ship conversion would be perfectly adequate, & much cheaper to operate.

Regardless of the threat, there aren’t any Harriers to buy. The USMC just bought the RAF’s entire stock for spares. They’re needed to keep the fleet in the air: they won’t be sold on, & the fact that they were bought shows how improbable it is that any of the existing fleet will be considered surplus.

Nor does anyone else have any for sale.

Get over it, mate. These childish fantasies are a waste of bandwidth. All they achieve is to make you look like a fool – and maybe a troll.

BTW, the radar on those Skyhawks is reported to be a downgraded version of the AN/APG-66v2. It’s not exactly state of the art nowadays.

The USMC already bought all of those the RAF had.

The RN has sold off most of their far smaller fleet already to museums and collectors.

And you think that there is any chance at all that Britain would sell some to Argentina?

Really?

Have you paid any attention to the conflicting diplomatic stances of those two countries lately (like for the last 32+ years)?

I agree it’s not likely. Yet, the US did sell Argentina A4M Skyhawks a number of years ago. Which, were upgraded with Advance Radars and Weapons. So, with the CVF’s coming on line with 5th Generation F-35’s. Would one small carrier with a handful of Harriers be such a threat????

Load her up, not with ASW heli´s but e.g. with a combination of UAVs (which may use ski-jump, if not rotary wing), armed utility helicopters and helicopter gunships and then put her out on anti-piracy patrol duties in the Arabian Sea, Gulf of Aden or thereabouts? Wouldn´t require a very expensive modernization, just maintenance / basic refit. Might Saudi Arabia be able to fund this, or possibly some of the ´Gulf States´ together?

Interesting idea……….nice to see someone think out of the box!

what about ex british harriers

The USMC already bought all of those the RAF had.

The RN has sold off most of their far smaller fleet already to museums and collectors.

And you think that there is any chance at all that Britain would sell some to Argentina?

Really?

Have you paid any attention to the conflicting diplomatic stances of those two countries lately (like for the last 32+ years)?

None will buy it.

No one wanted 30-year-old British Harrier-carriers that had been also used for troop-carrying duties (Invincible, Ark Royal), and nobody is expressing any interest in an even smaller, more-limited capability 25-year-old ASW-only carrier.

Spain will NOT sell the AV-8B+s with it, they will fly them from Juan Carlos I… so all it can ever be for anyone is a helo carrier.

New full-length versions of various 15,000-20,000 ton amphibs that can easily be modified before building starts for ASW capability are being marketed by several shipbuilders (and have been for ~20 years) with no takers, and if any nation wanted that capability they would be far more likely buy new.

Since no one has expressed interest before, the odds of someone suddenly deciding they HAVE to have an old, small, limited-capability ship right now is virtually non-existent.

what about ex british harriers

Considering Spain has put the “Príncipe de Asturias” up for sale. Which, country is likely to purchase the small STOVL Aircraft Carrier? (any ideas)

I could see India purchasing her. I understand they run ships up on the beach somewhere over there and then pay poor worker a pittance to cut them to tiny pieces.

Load her up, not with ASW heli´s but e.g. with a combination of UAVs (which may use ski-jump, if not rotary wing), armed utility helicopters and helicopter gunships and then put her out on anti-piracy patrol duties in the Arabian Sea, Gulf of Aden or thereabouts? Wouldn´t require a very expensive modernization, just maintenance / basic refit. Might Saudi Arabia be able to fund this, or possibly some of the ´Gulf States´ together?

Fox-2 (Greek Military Magazine) said the Philippines was interested yet I find that very hard to believe. As they would be lucky to purchase 12 F/A-50’s plus a couple small frigates and a number of small second hand craft.

That said, many were surprised when Brazil purchased the Sao Paulo (ex-Clemenceau) from France! Also, Argentina still maintains a Carrier Air Wing and desperately wants to get back into the Aircraft Carrier Business. So, maybe this could be an avenue??? The price of the Príncipe de Asturias is likely very modest. Yet, the cost of the Refit could be high. Of course that has much to do with the condition of said ship??? On the otherhand Spain economy is in dire straights. So, maybe they would be willing to give good terms………

None of that is very likely. Yet, its far from being out of the question………IMO

Yeah, but you have a history of posting ‘far from being out of the question’ proposals, none of which I can recall has ever come true. Perhaps it’s time to recognise the futility of the exercise.

Argentine economy is hardly a steller performer either and where are the Harriers it would need going to come from? not from Spain that’s for sure and I can’t see anyone else willing to sell any either.

Fox-2 (Greek Military Magazine) said the Philippines was interested yet I find that very hard to believe. As they would be lucky to purchase 12 F/A-50’s plus a couple small frigates and a number of small second hand craft.

That said, many were surprised when Brazil purchased the Sao Paulo (ex-Clemenceau) from France! Also, Argentina still maintains a Carrier Air Wing and desperately wants to get back into the Aircraft Carrier Business. So, maybe this could be an avenue??? The price of the Príncipe de Asturias is likely very modest. Yet, the cost of the Refit could be high. Of course that has much to do with the condition of said ship??? On the otherhand Spain economy is in dire straights. So, maybe they would be willing to give good terms………

None of that is very likely. Yet, its far from being out of the question………IMO