Project 17A Frigate for India

Are you kidding?? With a beam of 13 odd meters you really expect it to carry 2 10 ton helicopters? IF it can carry one it will be good enough.

Would be great if this corvette can get 2 NH-90’s instead of the Seakings..

I was more concerned with the cost amounts for the P17

Its tarantuls not tarantulas.

Auto spell check for Firefox ftw, even know it tried to correct yours. Those are 2000 figures for 16 Urans’ plus you add in FCR and spare missiles you are talking about a very significant cost. The main reason P-28s were procured in first place was cost escalation and delays with P-17.

The cost of each P-28 is Rs 700 Cr. This was quoted by the AGM of GRSE.
http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/19/stories/2008041960470700.htm

I added the extra 25 odd million for 8 urans systems as a ball park figure. The urans are relatively cheap compared to Klub or brahmos and I should be off by a large amount.

Its tarantuls not tarantulas. My point is even if adding the 8 Uran/Klub costs 25 million. The total cost of the P-28 would only rise to 200 million per ship. The ship would have a decent AShW capabilty, a modest AAW capability (Barak-1+Ak-630’s) and A terrific ASW capability. The F-22p costs something like 187.5 mil per ship with ToT (I am not sure whats the purpose of one ship ToT but even otherwise it would not cost less than 130-140 mil per ship.) and is not as capable while the milgem corvettes are smaller boats with broadly similar AAW and AShW capabilities and weaker ASW capabilities also cost 200 mil. 200 mil per ship is nothing when the GOI is ready to spend upto 800 mil per P-17a.

From what I understand a lot of the money for P28 has gone into singnature reduction (radar, thermal, noise etc). In that area – and probably in areas such as damage control, it should compared much more favoarably to F22P. Making it much harder to find, to target and to sink. Thus allowing it greater surviability even in the the absense of AShM. Look at the Italian Commandante class: no AShM, no SAM, limited ASW. It may be better to do one thing proper (e.g. ASW) than a lot of things so-so.

With respect to these dollar amounts, are they in any kind of constant dollar figure? Or are we comparing dollar cost in 2000 with that in 2008 straight up (while the dollar has gone down a lot e.g. relative to euro, which may lead to inflated unit prices if expressed in dollar.)

Its tarantuls not tarantulas. My point is even if adding the 8 Uran/Klub costs 25 million. The total cost of the P-28 would only rise to 200 million per ship. The ship would have a decent AShW capabilty, a modest AAW capability (Barak-1+Ak-630’s) and A terrific ASW capability. The F-22p costs something like 187.5 mil per ship with ToT (I am not sure whats the purpose of one ship ToT but even otherwise it would not cost less than 130-140 mil per ship.) and is not as capable while the milgem corvettes are smaller boats with broadly similar AAW and AShW capabilities and weaker ASW capabilities also cost 200 mil. 200 mil per ship is nothing when the GOI is ready to spend upto 800 mil per P-17a.

P-28s were procured mainly to maintain surface combatant numbers due to problems with P-17 construction also IN is moving away from missile corvette’s so there is no further plan to procure any more of tarantula class.

Seaking can carry sea eagle and tender should be out soon for both their replacement so that combination should address the AShW weakness. For what i understand it cost 20+ million just to equip tarantula’s with Uran couple years ago so they are saving money on that.

P-25’s and P-28 together make a very good combination but my point is that the need to deploy 2 ships can be avoided if the P-28’s just carry 8 AShM’s.

The kora and kukri class were also designed by NDB. They were supposed to be for ASW purposes but ended up being long ranged tarantuls and little else. Without urans P-28 will require P-25 as escort and completely beats the purpose of the ship. The Pauk class was good enough otherwise.

If P28 are optimized for ASW then one should look at how e.g. the US Navy used the Spruances in combination with other (more noisy) combat ships. Escorting – at least in the traditional sense – is not going to happen as Kukri’s/Kora’s would be load and noisy compared to the P28. More likely they would be somewhere ‘nearby’, this being within 130km Uran missile range (but most likely some 30-60km away).

I have a question guys…
I believe we would have to know more about the acoustic signature reduction methods employed in this vessel as well as the kind of sonar and countermeasures it has on board. Would also like to know about the kind of torpedoes it would carry. Remember that this vessel’s primary threat comes from underwater than the surface ships.

In primary weapons fit, it seems to follow the pattern of the russian Grisha class: DP gun, light guns, SAM, 2x RBU, 2x twin 533mm TR-ASW. Modern day equivalents for the ASW weapons can be identified from the Talwar class:
– the RPK-8 system, with a 12 barreled RBU-6000 ASW rocket launcher to fire 212mm homing 90R anti-submarine rockets or unguided RGB-60 depth charges.
– 2 twin 533mm DTA-53-11356 fixed torpedo tube launchers are fitted amidships and fire the SET-65E/53-65KE torpedoes.
– Purga anti-submarine fire-control system provides control for both the RBU-6000 and DTA-53 launchers.

Clearly, in P28, Larsen & Tubro built derivatives of the RBU and the torpedo-tubes will be used. Their website says these tubes can fire russian torpedoes (CET 65E [sic] anti submarine and CET 53-65 KE [sic] anti ship) as well as indigenous torpedoes such as Takshak, Kazind, etc. See here The DRDO with the help of Larsen & Toubro also developed a microprocessor controlled Triple tube torpedo launcher for the Indian Navy’s ships as well as Towed torpedo decoy (TOTED)

The 533mm torpedo tubes should be able to fire ss-n-15 (starfish) and this possibiliy is mentioned with the Delhi class, together with information on the russian torpedoes in use:
SET-65E: anti-submarine, active & passive homing torpedo to 8.1n miles; 15 km at 40 knots with a 205 kg warhead
SET 53-65KE; passive wake homing torpedo to 10.3n miles; 19 km at 45 knots with a 305 kg warhead.
Incidentally, Delhi carries up to 192 rockets for its 2 RBU-6000 (2x 96). A smaller ship like Grisha would carry 144 rounds (2x 72) The unguided RGB-60 does 500-5800m to a depth of 500m and has a 25-31kg HE warhead. It can also be used for shore bombardment. The homing 90RE does 600-4300m but to a depth of 1000m with a smaller 19,5 kg shaped charge warhead.

For the P17, it was mentioned in relation to the torpedo tubes that it was entirely possible that 91RE2 ASW missile would be employed for anti-submarine operations, given the flexibility of the Klub system. (Also mentioned for Delhi, by the way.) Obviously, if indeed torpedo tube launched, then this should be 91RE1. If this is so, then that’s also a possibiliy for P28.

Sonars: likely BEL HUMSA (Hull Mounted Sonar Array) and either the HUMVAAD Variable depth sonar or the NAGAN towed array sonar. Alternatively e.g. Thales Advanced Towed Array System or SSN-137 VDS (French)

The kora and kukri class were also designed by NDB. They were supposed to be for ASW purposes but ended up being long ranged tarantuls and little else. Without urans P-28 will require P-25 as escort and completely beats the purpose of the ship. The Pauk class was good enough otherwise.

I have a question guys…
This corvette is designed by the Directorate of Naval Design Bureau, so they must be having a goal (Anti-Submarine Warfare) and would know how the vessel has to be deployed, than why are we insisting that it should also have Anti Ship missiles etc.. We have a tendency of making every ship a multi role one it seems.

I believe we would have to know more about the acoustic signature reduction methods employed in this vessel as well as the kind of sonar and countermeasures it has on board. Would also like to know about the kind of torpedoes it would carry. Remember that this vessel’s primary threat comes from underwater than the surface ships.

http://www.larsentoubro.com/lntcorporate/LnT_Offerings/Product_Template1.aspx?res=P_CORP_BOFF_SBU_PROD&pid=666&sbu=75
This could be the torpedo tubes.

Nice find knew those weren’t DTAs.

http://www.larsentoubro.com/lntcorporate/LnT_Offerings/Product_Template1.aspx?res=P_CORP_BOFF_SBU_PROD&pid=666&sbu=75
This could be the torpedo tubes.

orko 8, did you manage to get a stern pic of the P28? I am curious if it has a towed array or not…

Unfortunately no. The model was placed in such a corner of the stand that it was almost impossible to look at it from stern.

I believe those torpedo tubes are 324 mm similar to Brahmaptura’s?
http://drdo.org/pub/techfocus/oct2000/underwater.htm

The model has twin tubes and they look relatively long. Much like the twin 533mm tubes on the ABHAY {PAUK II} and TALWAR {KRIVAK III} classes. Rajput and Delhi classes also employ heavyweights, but in a single quintuple mount.

Incidentally, even if the torpedo tubes were not used to fire missiles, she could still fire torpedoes in anti-ship role. Even something like Shkval. I.e. it doesn’t necessarily need antiship missiles to be dangerous.

Excuse me if I’m missing some cynicism here since caffein in my blood had dropped radically, but that’s a hard to imagine, let alone consider, way of launching surface-to-surface missiles; especially for a ship which has a much orthodox design with minimum or no innovation.

AShM launchers are not visible on Neustrashimy, because there is none. The ships are fitted-but-not-with Kh-35 Uran’s.

SS-N-15 (Starfish) ? Both sub-launched and surface-launched versions exist. The surface-launched versions are used by the Slava, Kirov, Neustrashimyy and Udaloy classes, while the sub-launched versions are used by the Akula, Oscar, Typhoon, Kilo and Borei classes.
(Neustrashimy: only 1 ship in service, one other possibly being completed)

there are 2 BEL Shikari (licene built RAN-trackers) they provide guidance for the main gun as well the ak-630 in the rear. Interesting note is that there is no STGR which indicates that they have integrated to provide command illumination for barak.

That is interesting.

You could be right, it may carry 91RE1’s. But still dissapointing as it would not havy any attack capability against ships. I would put in a few inclined urans.