RAAF History – A bit of a potted photo history

Doe’s any know of a picture of Mr Barnard and his Sis V, perhap’s just after his Race win.??? I would like to see how it was painted[/QUOTE]
I think this is the shot.Its originally a Flight Photo ,so full acknowledgement to them.

Just a bit!

Siskin IV :Civil version, developed for the 1925 King’s Cup Race, based on Siskin V with shorter span wing’s. total 1

Siskin V :Civil version, developed for Romania but sole example’s used for racing after cancellation of the order, metal and wood construction, with two-spar lower wing’s total 2.

F.L. Barnard won the 1925 King’s Cup Race in a Siskin V, at a speed of more than 151 mph(243 km/h).

Now here’s the long shot!

Doe’s any know of a picture of Mr Barnard and his Sis V, perhap’s just after his Race win.??? I would like to see how it was painted

Regarding the two Roumanian Siskin V shots on this thread it is perhaps of interest to note that in both cases the area around the a/c number on the rudder has been subject to a bit of alteration.
Possibly this is yet another illustration of the pitfalls of relying too much upon perceived markings and serials as primary evidence when attempting to establish the identities of individual aircraft. In this case it could be so mundane as the rudders merely having being swopped around.

Hmmm. Closing down the mystery.

It’s certainly an Armstrong Whitworth Siskin; what marque or model is a question.

There’s a profile view of the same aircraft on the same occasion marked as a ‘Mk.V’ here . However, the Mk.V was apparently intended as the Romanian export version, and the Mk.IV an air-racing civil variant of the Mk.V (confused? I am) but the Romanian order was cancelled after a pilot was killed in the first aircraft. The markings are interesting, being two-colour under-wing roundel(s) on the starboard lower wing, no fuselage roundel, and rudder striping, but not a ‘proper’ RAF serial on the rudder. The non-English summary on the rudder means that this might be the aircraft painted as the Romanian machine… Flags of the world gives
this page on the history of Romanian markings. Does anyone know what tail markings Romanian aircraft used inter-war?

There’s a sample of what is classed as Romanian inter-war markings here .

I don’t think it’s a Siskin in Australia – I suspect the photo got muddled into a collection in error.

Much more interesting!

In Oliver Tapper’s Putnam AW history there is a photo (p128) of the Roumanian Siskin V – almost identical in aspect to that found by JDK ( I think its No 2 by looking under the tailplane). The Putnam picture does ,additionally, reveal the underwing roundel, which I notice is similar in appearance to that in the head-on view. In the absence of any other information, it does appear that the mystery aircraft is,in fact, probably a Roumanian Siskin V, of which about a dozen were completed end 1924 to beginning 1925 before later cancellation in early 1925 after about 34 total had been built.
Roumanian colours on this particular aircraft were probably , fin flash:from front- Blue, Yellow, Red: Roundel , from Centre- Blue , Yellow, Red (From a contemporary colour plate in the pre WWII “War in the Air” volumes -Ed.Sir John Hammerton,as well as many subsequent artists interpretations)
I think that the yellow and red sectors of the roundel are probably almost undifferentiated in grey level in the images posted,thus causing the confusion. However, in the “Putnam” shot, on the fin flash at least, one can comfortably discern all three bands, including the additional pale toned (blue?) band forward of the two that are visible in the “JDK” shot.
Turning back a page to p127 in Tapper’s book there is a shot of the Siskin V G-EBLQ in front of what looks like the same hangars as in the head-on shot. The location of these is “Whitley Abbey Aerodrome”.
So in summary:
The mystery aircraft is almost certainly an Armstrong Whitworth Siskin V, possibly No 4, of the cancelled Roumanian order and was photographed at the Manufacturer’s Whitley Abbey aerodrome (just south of Coventry U.K. ) in around the winter of 1924/1925.
Enclosed is the shot (author of image unknown) from page 128 of Tapper’s Putnam AW Book. N.B. all 3 bands of the fin flash are clearly visible in the original book illustration.

Thank you, specially for the B25 RNEIAF 😀
It was a B-25D-35-NC USAAF 43-3833
After the war it was renamed M-408 and served AURIS.

Hi John

Yep I know Setter :rolleyes: , it was an oldie mate!

BUT still a goodie regarding Oz History 😎 ,
it was just the stand in mystery plane that got of bit more interest, It screamed Siskin to me, than I thought H,mm did we ever have any in Oz, as I thought not :confused: .

25deg’s 😉 you did really well mate for a head on shot like that, the different type’s of Sis’s made were really only slight, after the III’s entered production in 1923.

Some 64 III’s were made for the RAF, getting in to service in about 1924 as Snipy replacement’s, serving well until the IIIA improved job got thrown together.

IIIA’s first flight 20 October 1925, differed only in the Donk and a few other thing’s,
Now had a 385/450hp A.S.-Jaguar IV supercharged engine, redesigned the vertical tail some, a slight change’s to it’s rear fuselage, and upper wing dihedral.

About 340 Sis IIIA’s fighter’s got built for the RAF, plus about 50 2 seater’s as duel-control trainer’s.

Delivery’s of the IIIA’s to the RAF began in 1927.

Small number’s of Sis’s were supplied to other airforce’s, not sure really of where they went, but IIIA’s and some trainer’s went to Canada, and some to Estonia, later known as the IIIDC’s.

Sound like quiet a few IIIDC’s operated in flying school’s, alongside Avro 504, 626 and Avian trainer’s right up to the end of the 1930’s!!. 😮

The two other version’s, IIIB with the A.S.-Jag VIII and an engine ring cowl( for a bit more speed trial I guess), and the Sis V for the dud Rom order.

The few pic’s I have found so far in me book’s, have the old tail set up, and yes, that Sis V JDK show’s is a V. maybe number 4 th built on that Rom order.

I’ll dig a little more in the book’s, but I’m still blooody crook with a wog, on top of the usual SSDD!!, been a fun WEEK! :rolleyes:

Ciao All 😉

Hi all

This is an old thread – please note I don’t post on this forum any more – James I believe you are correct and it is a mis notation on the back of the pic perhaps but all the other pics in the collection appear correct so I guess he just got confused

Feel free to PM me

Kind regards
John P

Hmmm. Closing down the mystery.

It’s certainly an Armstrong Whitworth Siskin; what marque or model is a question.

There’s a profile view of the same aircraft on the same occasion marked as a ‘Mk.V’ here . However, the Mk.V was apparently intended as the Romanian export version, and the Mk.IV an air-racing civil variant of the Mk.V (confused? I am) but the Romanian order was cancelled after a pilot was killed in the first aircraft. The markings are interesting, being two-colour under-wing roundel(s) on the starboard lower wing, no fuselage roundel, and rudder striping, but not a ‘proper’ RAF serial on the rudder. The non-English summary on the rudder means that this might be the aircraft painted as the Romanian machine… Flags of the world gives this page on the history of Romanian markings. Does anyone know what tail markings Romanian aircraft used inter-war?

There’s a sample of what is classed as Romanian inter-war markings here .

I don’t think it’s a Siskin in Australia – I suspect the photo got muddled into a collection in error.

Much more interesting!

John,

what ever the Gamecock really is? I dont think the photo is taken on any of the RAAF bases in Australia?

The hangars behind it are of a type only similar to the Point Cook 1917 Battleplane Hangars and both of those did not have buildings located behind them as these do?, I dont believe this form of hangar was used at any other Australian base including Richmond?

regards

Mark Pilkington

Thanks Dave,can’t believe I didn’t twig it myself :rolleyes: The thick plottens as they say,just about everything is wrong for a Gamecock so far as I can tell. The wing struts,rigging,undercart and engine are all completely different to all the Gamecock references I can find. I was recently sent a complete set of cutaway plans and rigging diagrams etc for the Gamecock by a friend who’s doing some in-depth research into the type,and nothing fits when I compare all this info to the photo.
The alternatives that spring to mind are the Gloster Mars,Nieuport Nightjar and Nieuport Nighthawk. The Mars/Nightjar seems to fit the bill the best in structural terms,complete with the wide-track,long stroke undercarriage legs. The problem is that I can’t find reference to any Mars’ or Nightjars being fitted with anything but a rotary engine.
Anyone have any suggestions?

Looking at that undercarriage, Double row radial, relative wing spans and the struttery ;I wonder if we are looking at a member of the first generation AW Siskin family , possibly a Siskin V ,or therebouts,variant?

WOW!!!

Must slipped by me in my down time!!! 😎

Great stuff Setter(John) mate!

Please more if you ave em! 😀

A magic slice of Oz history there!

Ciao! 😉

Hi Ant

You should never believe whats on the back of pics !!!

I have always believed that this was a sample Gamecock because I have a the original pic and thats what it says – that this was a sample Gamecock sent here for evaluation by the RAAF Richmond and rejected as unsuitable- I think this was eventually the need that was filled by the Bulldog – none of which survives – I will do some sluthing as I have seen this or similar photos in my books – I am on my way to the UK but will be back Friday and look it up then

Kindest regards
John P

Ah,more treasure 🙂 Thanks again John,that head-on Hudson shot is wonderfully evocative.

For JDK

Thanks Dave,can’t believe I didn’t twig it myself :rolleyes: The thick plottens as they say,just about everything is wrong for a Gamecock so far as I can tell. The wing struts,rigging,undercart and engine are all completely different to all the Gamecock references I can find. I was recently sent a complete set of cutaway plans and rigging diagrams etc for the Gamecock by a friend who’s doing some in-depth research into the type,and nothing fits when I compare all this info to the photo.
The alternatives that spring to mind are the Gloster Mars,Nieuport Nightjar and Nieuport Nighthawk. The Mars/Nightjar seems to fit the bill the best in structural terms,complete with the wide-track,long stroke undercarriage legs. The problem is that I can’t find reference to any Mars’ or Nightjars being fitted with anything but a rotary engine.
Anyone have any suggestions?

Some more

The Wapati is of particular Interest A5-12
This must be the strangest “Special” ever created – The machine was specially modified for air racing!!!

Note the faired over rear cockpit and the cleaned up airframe and can you pick who the “Special ” pilot was – Very “Special”

Regards
john P

Great photos John.

Ant, run your mouse over the photos and you’ll see the answers. Jenny and Gamecock.

The pilot of the Jenny is not mentioned, though from the signature I’d say he’s possibly called Sid. So if you can find reference to an RAAF Jenny pilot at Richmond of that name in the 1920’s, you might narrow it down I’d guess. Do you know Setter?

Who was Ginger Megg originally, was that a cartoon strip character?

Wonderful shots John,thanks for digging them out. Do you have any details to go with the photo’s?Any ideas what type the biplane on the right in the very top row is,or who the pilot might be?What about the biplane ‘fighter’ with the wide track undercart in the second row of the second batch?It looks rather like a Gloster Mars or one of its derivatives.
Interesting. 🙂

Hi John,
Great shots. Thanks for sharing them
Regards Martin

A few more