Radio 4 – 31 Sqd Liberator Found

I think when it comes to the time we really have very little say in the matter! I think you follow the general principle of putting someone in one place where they can have respect as opposed to hidden in some jungle or buried in the land where the only person who might respect them is someone when they find the remains in a backhoe.

I think the only way we can ensure someone receives some degree of respect is a Christian burial.

Unless that are/were part of the 65% of people on this planet who aren’t christian…I find the idea that someone may find my carcass laying some place & subject it to a bunch of christian hooey to be somewhat offensive & thats putting it mildly.

When I contacted the Woodward family back in 2001 about the placque to Woodward, his widow was a bit icy about the idea and questioned why, after all this time, did people feel the need to erect a memorial to him and his fellow Squadron member.

On the other hand his daughter was delighted that we would go to the trouble. As she said “it gives her family a reference point, some where if they feel the need to, they can come and reflect on the loss of their loved one”.

After the ceremony in September 2002 Woodward’s widow told her daughter that now that she had seen where Roberts remains were situated, she would like to have her ashes scattered over the spot. Sadly we were able to oblige a little over a year later.

What I’m trying to say is that a marker in a field somewhere doesn’t necessarily matter to the family, a reference point to their love one and knowing where they lie is just as good. If you could go back and ask the serviceman who were lost, I bet many would say that if they were to be killed they would like to rest with their brothers in arms. Bringing the remains home such as the Americans do is not the only answer.

Back in 2002 I recall Bert Dowty who was a front Gunner on one of the 44 Sqn Lancaster’s shot down during the Augsburg raid in April 1942 stating that when his time came, he would like his ashes scattered with his comrades in the various cemeteries of Normandy. I believe his family carried out his wishes in 2004.

Sad to say but the wishes of the families and our ideas of war graves might be entirely different in one hundred years. Witness various programmes that have recovered dna from graves for the purposes of historical research . I think the only way we can ensure someone receives some degree of respect is a Christian burial.

Hello Karl.
You make some very good points.I feel that if the family wish to have their remains recovered for a proper and fitting memorial/burial then by all means the aircraft should be recovered. If however the family do not wish to have their loved ones disturbed, then a memorial plaque should be left and the aircraft made into a wargrave.

Family member Anne has already posted on here recently trying to clear up the confusion caused when FP said the aircraft was found off the Greek Coast

Dave

My feelings are it should be down to the family. Its their relative after all and if they whant the remains recoverd and reburied so it should be but if they dont then people should not touch the wreck site.
And if family members cannot be traced assume the latter and leave them alone.

British Tradition

On the 2 recoveries done by our historical groups of Halifax NA337 and LW682 we first located family and crew mates and asked them if we could recover the aircraft and obviously any crew we would find in our airframe recovery. We had a full sequence of preparations ready for any crew found.
If the family were in agreement with our aims we went ahead with the recovery (thank goodness these 2 recoveries were done on non-British soil).

From my experience and now looking back on the great closure and heart-warming scenes of our recoveries with family there and the support they received in our respectful endeavours I say that British tradition of leaving these warriors lieing in a lake or mud or whereever they may be found does not serve the purposes and benefits that can be derived by their recovery and proper burial.

I would appreciate any input along these lines and I think we should talk about this as there are many recoveries out there which await us. If we are willing to take care and be respectful in the recoveries while saving our warriors from an ignoble resting place we must do it.

I am not in favour of leaving these men “where they may lie” as a tribute.

Respectfully,
Karl Kj.

Of course if she was an American aircraft great efforts would be made to give her crew a Christian burial – how sad we still persist in this idea of leaving them in lonely places.

On the BBC website:-

Woman’s hope over wartime bomber

A Wiltshire woman has travelled to Italy to see a Royal Navy salvage team try to excavate the remains of the wartime bomber her father flew on.

Ann Storm from Marlborough was just a year old when her father, Bob Millar, a bomb aimer, was reported missing in action over Genoa in October 1944.

The missing aircraft, a B-24 Liberator from 31 Squadron, took off from Cheloni in the province of Foggia.

It was dropping supplies to partisans 12 miles from Genoa but never returned.

There were eight crew members on board, two British men, one Australian and five South Africans.

They are all commemorated in Malta on a memorial for missing aircrew of the Mediterranean campaign.

Ms Storm has spent much of her life trying to find the wreckage.

The aircraft is known to have taken a route north west over the Ligurian Sea but is thought to have come down in heavy weather over Lake Bolsena, around halfway along the route.

A navy salvage team entered the lake early on Monday and is controlling a remote submarine with an onboard camera.

The object the team is looking at is some 100 metres below the surface.

Ms Storm was at the lakeside on Monday and will be viewing footage from the dive.

If it is the wreckage of flight KH158, it will be classed as a war grave and a plaque in commemoration of the eight men will be placed below the aircraft beneath the water.